I am copying this story from the following blog to exemplify a PATTERN of behavior.
Here is the blog address: everynationexposed.blogspot.com (Bold emphases mine.)
-----------------
One fellow that I really grew to like and admire is a brother I’ll call Peter.
Peter was probably about 27, but he seemed ancient to me at my then 19 years of age. He was a very successful real estate agent in Auburn and a “real catch” for the ministry. His best friend “Sam”, whose father owned a men’s clothing store chain with locations throughout the southeast had introduced him to Maranatha. Sam was also “well off” by Ministry standards of the day. Together Sam and Peter were the dynamic duo- and brought a lot of vitality and maturity to the group of single brothers.
Peter had been a Christian for a while- and I think he liked our (the younger single brothers) enthusiasm and probably our naiveté about the whole Christian experience. He was very encouraging to me- and told me that the witness I was being in my frat was a wonderful opportunity to serve the Lord where sinners lived.
He had been a member of the XXX frat (the same one that Blake from an earlier part had been from) and he could relate to my experience. His advice was to stay in the frat. And to be the “salt’ there- or in his words ‘plough the field that God has put you in.” I really liked him- and found his counsel to be wise and gentle. He was the only one who did not seemed “thrilled” about me leaving the frat when it was announced in November of the last year.
I later learned that Peter had refused to be re-baptized or admit that he had "not been a Christian" previously. MY guess is that this was let slide because of the sizable checks he was probably dropping in the offering plate.
Before long I found myself gravitating to Peter with questions I had and wishing “secretly” that he was my shepherd. He was never dogmatic and encouraged me to seek God or pray about issues. Rather than spouting off "answers" more than likely my requests for guidance were met with "What do you think God is telling you?" or "What do you think the Bible says?"
Of course this could not happen at the present time because he had not “proven” himself to the local leadership over time.
From a MCM perspective this “prove yourself first was a wise policy in Peter’s case.
Peter had a beautiful town house within walking distance of the campus- and he invited us to come over to his home to use his well equipped home gym whenever we wanted to. He also opened his home to us on Sunday afternoons and he would feed us for free and we would talk about the things of Christ and Jesus and his thoughts on the Christian walk.
I am not sure that the leadership of Auburn knew about these impromptu sessions. At least not at first.
Peter would freely admit at these sessions or in our talks that on some things that MCM taught there were no right answers- and when pressed, by me about some of the strange doctrines (Water Baptism for cutting away the old man) he would shrug his shoulders and tell me that I should test these in prayer.
Another example of doctrines that he was not dogmatic on were the MCM prophetic utterances- he told us one afternoon that we should test any prophetic utterance against what the Word of God said and against our conscience- and if any “word” from a “prophet” was contrary to either of these things we should ignore them.
After the incident with Joe Smith prophesying about Daniel being reconciled with his dead father I asked Peter about it and how Joe, the anointed prophet could have gotten it so wrong.
Peter sat there for a minute and said “Well Tik Paul says we prophesy in part…and Joe is just human. I would suggest that you test all prophecy against the conscience God has given you and against the Word. If your conscience tells you no, or if prophecy is contrary to the Word I would ignore any prophecy no matter what the source.”
He also warned me and a couple of other brothers about being overly dependent on advice from elders or anyone else- that we should seek multiple counsels. He was especially concerned about me withdrawing from the frat.
Well, you can imagine that this guy rapidly became our hero (that is the four or five single brothers he befriended). He was extremely athletic, welcoming, humble, successful and very knowledgeable about scripture.
It was in March of 1979- about six months after I had joined MCM that I bumped into Peter on the steps of the Maranatha House on a Sunday afternoon.
“Hey bro!” I said.
I loved seeing Peter; he always had something positive to say- always a word of encouragement. He was the Christian I wanted to be someday.
He stopped, and for once there was no smile on his face.
“Hey Tikie, I am in a bit of a hurry, but can you call me tonight? I want to talk to you about something important.”
“Sure “I said, and seeing the expression on his face I continued, “Is there anything wrong Peter, anything I can do to help?”
Just as I was saying this the front door opened and Mike G stepped out onto the columned porch.
Peter looked at Mike quizzically and then patted me on the shoulder, “See you around Tikie”. Then he walked up the street.
I looked from him to Mike and then back again to the figure of Peter retreating up the street.
“Anything wrong with Peter?” I asked Mike.
“Tik, he said, “we need to talk.”
We went into the administration office and Mike shut the door.
“Tik, I have something I need to tell you, something of a very serious nature.”
My first thoughts were “Have I done something, or failed to do something?”
Mike continued “You need to know that Peter has been asked to leave the congregation, he is in sin.”
I was stunned, my stomach did a flip. Peter was almost a hero to me. I really looked up to him as an “older brother in the faith.”
“But how, why?” I stammered.
Mike scratched his head and looked over my head into the air- a detached look.
“You see Tik, God has called the Body [he meant the MCM Auburn Ministry] to have one mind to display the unity of spirit. In Ephesians, in fact, Paul tells us to endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace. Without unity and without peace we will become just like the world- with arguments and factions and infighting- without any real direction or purpose.”
Well, one of the reasons I had been dissatisfied with the BSU and First Baptist was a clear sense of direction and purpose- but I was unsure of how this tied to Peter- Peter of all people leaving God’s chosen group.
My chest tightened.
“But I don’t understand Mike- Peter loved what we were doing-nobody is more on fire for Jesus than Peter- and he was a real encouragement to all- remember Joe Smith’s prophecy over Peter- that he would be a “rock” like his name sake?”
“Yes” Mike said, “But you see the Devil is seeking to devour and destroy those that he can. And the easiest way to do this is to plant seeds of bitterness and divisiveness in the body. And Peter started listening to Satan- and he was gossiping and speaking against the leadership.”
I just sat there- I could not believe what I was hearing. Peter in league with Satan?
“You see if we have a disagreement with the leadership we should approach them in love and discuss the disagreement- but ultimately we should submit to each other- just like Jesus submitted to the Father. The Church must submit to Jesus and the sheep must submit to the shepherd. But Peter could not or would not submit his life to being discipled by the elders. He was too proud to admit his own sin.”
Mike’s voice became quiet “We went to Peter three times to correct him. Paul tells us to be prepared in season and out of season, to correct and rebuke and encourage with great patience and instruction. But Peter was determined to continue in his rebellion. He was sinning against the church and against the brothers when he did this.”
Mike opened his Bible and read “When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death”
“Allowing Peter to continue in rebellion would have given birth to sin and then to death. The Bible says that we are to allow no one to miss the grace of God and to not allow the root of bitterness to cause trouble and infect the entire congregation.”
I interrupted Mike “But what was Peter objecting to?- he never showed any sign of sin to me- and certainly not bitterness- he is one of the most kind and gentle men I have ever known."
It was true- he had a real solid quietness about him, when I think even today of Peter I think of the old Spiritual “Like a tree planted by the water I will not be moved.”
“Tik, I am not going to go into SPECIFIC sins”, he strung out the word specific softly and slowly, “but the sin was real and could affect the ministry and the spiritual growth of others.”
He leaned forward and took my arm.
“In fact Mike [Caulk] and I were especially worried about new brothers like you- because we knew that Peter had been cultivating friendships with the younger single brothers. I understand he was counseling some of you to ignore the advice and guidance of the shepherds that you have been entrusted with.
I paused and thought about it. Well, it was true that Peter had told us to judge all things, prophecies and teachings by the Word and our conscience alone- but that is was I was already doing, wasn’t I?
“But Mike, I never heard Peter say anything about not listening to the leadership.”
“Maybe”, he said, “but he had a spirit of rebellion in him and the Bible says that a spirit of rebellion is akin to witchcraft. He is against the work we are doing and so we shall give him over to Satan to be sifted.”
“So what does that mean?” I asked.
”It means what Paul says in Corinthians” and Mike flipped his Bible open and started reading a passage from Corinthians, I followed along with him.
"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"
“Are you saying that Peter has been involved in immorality?” I was incredulous; I knew this could not be true.
“I am not going to go into detail about ALL of his sins- but feel compelled to tell you that among other sins he has been slanderous of the leadership. And this clearly tells us that we are not even to associate with him.”
I must have had an expression of horror on my face- because this is what I was feeling.
“Now Tik”, he said softly and with compassion, “this is for Peter’s own good. Here is what Paul says about situations like this- and he pointed to a scripture in Corinthians: “hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.”
“Unless we give him over to Satan his mortal soul may be in danger.”
I made no response- What was I supposed to say? Now I was staring off into space.
He put his face into my line of sight.
“Tik, I know this must be a real blow to you, believe me I felt the same way when I first found out.”
“Yeah Mike, I just don’t get it.”
“God will make it clear to you Tik. Lets pray now.”
And Mike launched into a sincere prayer for Peter’s soul and a heartfelt plea for Peter’s repentance and he thanked God for my example and my walk.
As I left his office he took my shoulder and looked me in the eye, “Now remember, no contact with Peter, he is deceived by Satan and has a spirit of witchcraft and rebellion. You are vulnerable to this since you are a new Christian and because of your friendship with Peter. You must be careful that you do not shipwreck your faith.”
I nodded yes and trudged up the stairs.
Peter had asked me to call him tonight.
But now I had heard he was in deception, that he had a spirit of witchcraft. If I called him I might not only put my salvation in question, but I would be violating what the Bible said about “handing him over to Satan” to save his mortal soul.
And to protect mine.
I shivered.
If I called Peter I could be putting both his and my salvation at risk.
Our mortal souls, perhaps.
And that was simply a chance I could not and would not take.
For Peter was of Satan and we brothers would now avoid him at all cost.
-------------
In case you're wondering, this is not a healthy paradigm. Everyone should be open to questioning and every topic available for questioning as well. Nor should you have to be in full agreement on every little topic to live in community. In healthy systems, disagreement (and even dissension) is allowed. It can be dealt with openly and honestly.
Indeed, I have often heard (even at Milestone), "In the essentials, unity. In the non-essentials, liberty." The only thing that should really classify as "essentials" is the Trinity, virgin birth, etc. Marriage roles should NOT be made a marker for unity. Believing in mutual submission should not be cause to kick someone out of fellowship.
And the attitude that you must "trust/agree with your leaders completely" is, well, asinine. Why? Because who is good but God? No one is completely trustworthy! Because we're all humans! None of us is a little demi-god, incapable of error.
I often heard at Milestone: "If you can't trust your leaders, you shouldn't be walking with them!" What? I don't even really know you. I've not spent enough time with you to really trust you. Yet if I show wisdom in this area and withhold some trust, I can just hit the road. God will provide someone else to take your place!
I hope the spiritual DNA from EN/Maranatha is becoming more clear!
Thursday, December 17, 2009
Wednesday, December 16, 2009
Aftershocks - Part III
I had to add another post here simply because I'm not sure that I adequately explained how our lives changed.
You have to understand that before coming to Milestone, we were intensely seeking deeply connected spiritual family. I came alive there. I discovered that I am a people connector. As one friend says, that's my "Olympic event." I was in the midst of bliss in that environment as far as friendships go. Being surrounded by lots of people who wanted to live their lives with us was like a dream. That was my home school group, my mom's group, everything.
My husband's dream had always been to run an athletics ministry. He was feeling like his calling was being fulfilled.
Our children had been there almost since they could remember. All of their friends were there.
Everything in our lives revolved around our church family. I had a framed pictured of our pastor's family sitting in my living room for heaven's sake!
So the loss was just tremendous. I couldn't stop crying for days. Frank would go out of town and I would sit in our bedroom at night and cry and pray and beg God to please make all of this right. I was VERY upset/angry with the leadership but asked God to give me His heart for them.
As I mentioned, both of us had nightmares for months where we would wake up either frightened or rageful at what had happened. I had obsessive thoughts for a long time so that I couldn't even go to sleep at night until I was exhausted. I would just keep running it over and over in my head. The things that were said to us, that cold, careless look on Derrick's face. My friends' faces would come to mind. A shower gel that someone had given me last Christmas would make me cry. Seeing gifts that friends had given our children. More tears. Looking at my infant son's baby clothes and knowing from whom each and every article was from. Tears. I couldn't bear the thought that people would think that we had just decided one day to leave. Without even telling anyone or saying "goodbye."
I didn't really reach out to my family at all because I didn't want to make my sister feel awkward. I didn't want the family dynamics to be taking sides. So we basically just leaned on our counselor and our new friends at CR. We had very few good friends that we talked to about it all. I think that made it a bit harder to process.
When our children would ask why they haven't seen their friends, or when they can, I didn't know what to say. When they would talk about their pastors or songs they sang at church, we just sort of nodded and changed the subject.
Our marriage, which had been doing so phenomenally well, took a steep turn for the worse for about six months. We weren't really angry at one another. I think we just felt beaten down by all of it. There wasn't a lot of closeness, even though we talked constantly about how we were feeling. I think a lot of it was my deep depression over the entire thing. I finally did get on some anti-depressants which have helped me with the repetitive thoughts and anxiety and sadness.
I will say that I had three or four friends from Milestone who gathered around me and just were so incredibly sweet. Each one of these women knew exactly what I was talking about on the topics of women and brokenness. They could see it too so that allowed them to love me freely and enter into my pain with me. They were really a blessing because for a long time I felt like maybe I was just crazy. I kept thinking, "If nobody else seems to be bothered by all of this, maybe I'm nuts." If the people who knew that there were lies being used to oust us...if they didn't seem to care, was I missing something?*
At any rate, we are still working through it but it's getting easier with time. Last month, one precious friend sat in Cheesecake Factory with me and held my hand while I cried. She never let go. :o) (Thank you, sweet friend). A few nights ago, she sat with me again as we prayed for the whole situation. I thank God for those sweet and blessed women who have stood with me during this.
*Our counselor, who used to be a pastor of a large church, assured us that this sort of thing is quite common. It was hard to wrap our minds around that. Since leaving the traditional church, we have heard hundreds of similar horror stories. Many of them FAR worse than ours. One former pastor friend showed up to work at his church on Sunday morning and was handed a microphone and told to go tell the congregation that he would be leaving. Only this was the first he'd heard of it!!
You have to understand that before coming to Milestone, we were intensely seeking deeply connected spiritual family. I came alive there. I discovered that I am a people connector. As one friend says, that's my "Olympic event." I was in the midst of bliss in that environment as far as friendships go. Being surrounded by lots of people who wanted to live their lives with us was like a dream. That was my home school group, my mom's group, everything.
My husband's dream had always been to run an athletics ministry. He was feeling like his calling was being fulfilled.
Our children had been there almost since they could remember. All of their friends were there.
Everything in our lives revolved around our church family. I had a framed pictured of our pastor's family sitting in my living room for heaven's sake!
So the loss was just tremendous. I couldn't stop crying for days. Frank would go out of town and I would sit in our bedroom at night and cry and pray and beg God to please make all of this right. I was VERY upset/angry with the leadership but asked God to give me His heart for them.
As I mentioned, both of us had nightmares for months where we would wake up either frightened or rageful at what had happened. I had obsessive thoughts for a long time so that I couldn't even go to sleep at night until I was exhausted. I would just keep running it over and over in my head. The things that were said to us, that cold, careless look on Derrick's face. My friends' faces would come to mind. A shower gel that someone had given me last Christmas would make me cry. Seeing gifts that friends had given our children. More tears. Looking at my infant son's baby clothes and knowing from whom each and every article was from. Tears. I couldn't bear the thought that people would think that we had just decided one day to leave. Without even telling anyone or saying "goodbye."
I didn't really reach out to my family at all because I didn't want to make my sister feel awkward. I didn't want the family dynamics to be taking sides. So we basically just leaned on our counselor and our new friends at CR. We had very few good friends that we talked to about it all. I think that made it a bit harder to process.
When our children would ask why they haven't seen their friends, or when they can, I didn't know what to say. When they would talk about their pastors or songs they sang at church, we just sort of nodded and changed the subject.
Our marriage, which had been doing so phenomenally well, took a steep turn for the worse for about six months. We weren't really angry at one another. I think we just felt beaten down by all of it. There wasn't a lot of closeness, even though we talked constantly about how we were feeling. I think a lot of it was my deep depression over the entire thing. I finally did get on some anti-depressants which have helped me with the repetitive thoughts and anxiety and sadness.
I will say that I had three or four friends from Milestone who gathered around me and just were so incredibly sweet. Each one of these women knew exactly what I was talking about on the topics of women and brokenness. They could see it too so that allowed them to love me freely and enter into my pain with me. They were really a blessing because for a long time I felt like maybe I was just crazy. I kept thinking, "If nobody else seems to be bothered by all of this, maybe I'm nuts." If the people who knew that there were lies being used to oust us...if they didn't seem to care, was I missing something?*
At any rate, we are still working through it but it's getting easier with time. Last month, one precious friend sat in Cheesecake Factory with me and held my hand while I cried. She never let go. :o) (Thank you, sweet friend). A few nights ago, she sat with me again as we prayed for the whole situation. I thank God for those sweet and blessed women who have stood with me during this.
*Our counselor, who used to be a pastor of a large church, assured us that this sort of thing is quite common. It was hard to wrap our minds around that. Since leaving the traditional church, we have heard hundreds of similar horror stories. Many of them FAR worse than ours. One former pastor friend showed up to work at his church on Sunday morning and was handed a microphone and told to go tell the congregation that he would be leaving. Only this was the first he'd heard of it!!
Tuesday, December 15, 2009
Aftershocks - Part II
The rest of the story is less complex than the previous parts. It's the story a thousand other people have lived out after having things like this happen to them.
We met soon after the "ousting" with our dear friends Angela and Joseph. Because we had agreed not to share too much with anyone (because we knew that it would push us farther away from them), we could only share a very small portion with them. We sat in our living room and told just a bit of what happened and had Joseph look at us and say, "What you're telling us doesn't match the character of our leadership." My heart was so sad. I told him, "Joseph, I can't speak to that. All I know is what happened to us."
He also sounded very suspicious of us saying, "It sounds like you guys were trying to hide things from the leadership." It is impossible to explain to people what you know and see and the why behind trying to keep things private from the leadership. It is also impossible to explain to someone how their entire paradigm about being "under the authority" of people you don't necessarily trust is just wrong.
Joseph, who had been in close contact with my dh for over two years, never called or emailed him again that I knew of. I have watched that tear my husband up.
I saw and heard from Angela just briefly a few times but it was clear that things are pretty much done there. Of all the relationships I have lost, that one is the saddest to me.
We also had a meeting with Bob and Jesse that was slightly more confrontational (we discussed some dynamics of our interactions as couples) but also more uplifting because they seemed to believe more of the abusive nature of what happened to us although the specifically told me that they didn't "want any details."
However, I recently got an email from Jessie (after a series of emails back and forth) that told me that I had "to take some responsibility for what happened to me." She apparently "knew" this because she had been talking to people about what happened.
I sent her a VERY not-nice email back letting her know that she had a lot of nerve sitting on my couch telling me she didn't want details of what happened from the person it happened to and then would turn around and talk to other people about it who weren't even there. (I was a little angry.) She (or someone) has since apparently been involved in spreading this gossip about me to other former friends as I recently found out.
A former acquaintance, Alice, told me that I have "a very rebellious spirit about many things regarding true submission and the Word and spiritual accountability." She later told me that it was clear that I am "not willing to reason with church leadership and other sisters in Christ who have known you much longer than myself."
So I'm not sure what people are hearing or from whom. It is apparent to me that these people who think that they knew or know me simply don't. They have been so deceived by their idea that their pastors are demi-gods who can do no evil, that they have become convinced that it must be ME who is at fault.
Talking To Pastors
I would like to say here that several people did go talk to the pastors (either Jeff or Derrick) because they were concerned about what had happened. Apparently, however, everything was nicely and neatly explained away. Jeff apparently clearly explained how "divisive" my husband and I were being. They have been and are simply telling people that we "chose" to leave. With no warning. With no "farewell party" or "goodbyes." (I cannot even believe that people would believe this.)
One husband of a friend told Derrick something akin to, "You put Frank up on the platform to speak at Victory Weekends like he was some kind of sexual dynamo. You paraded him as an example of how your marriage paradigm works. Now you're just going to say that they're leaving? That doesn't cut it." But nothing ever came of that that I know of.
We also found out that Jeff told one man that he knew that Derrick hadn't handled the situation well and that he himself would have handled it differently.
Two things about this made me upset. One, that our senior pastor had KNOWN that we had been wounded and were hurting and did nothing about it. That isn't pastoral. At all. He didn't email or call or attempt in any way to find out from us exactly what had happened. That, to me, in unconscionable.
Secondly, the fact that our friends, who knew everything that was said to us, defying all logic, compassion, and justice, would be placated. That hit me really hard as well.
I had a conversation with a friend member not too long ago who was and is deeply entrenched in their authority paradigm, in my opinion.
We talked about that first week and how offended she was that I had removed her as a facebook friend. She was also hurt that I hadn't called her to tell her what was going on and why we "chose" to leave.
I pointed out that I had actually contacted her right away to see if she was ok. I got no response back from my her. I later discovered that she had been "explaining" to people that we had left.
That should demonstrate how deeply the controlling nature of the church goes. This lady didn't even call me to find out what was going on. She just "trusted her leadership" when they told her we "chose" to leave. I pointed out to her that people inside the church and people outside the church had totally different reactions.
Why is that? It's because people inside of the church are actually loyal to that organization, more than to Jesus or his commission to help the wounded and hurting. They're not as loyal to their families. Or friends. Or loved ones. Or broken and wounded former church family members. As they are to the organization, to the institution that their lives are centered around.
And by definition, that is either a cult or a controlling and abusive environment. Everyone who isn't "in" is "out."
We met soon after the "ousting" with our dear friends Angela and Joseph. Because we had agreed not to share too much with anyone (because we knew that it would push us farther away from them), we could only share a very small portion with them. We sat in our living room and told just a bit of what happened and had Joseph look at us and say, "What you're telling us doesn't match the character of our leadership." My heart was so sad. I told him, "Joseph, I can't speak to that. All I know is what happened to us."
He also sounded very suspicious of us saying, "It sounds like you guys were trying to hide things from the leadership." It is impossible to explain to people what you know and see and the why behind trying to keep things private from the leadership. It is also impossible to explain to someone how their entire paradigm about being "under the authority" of people you don't necessarily trust is just wrong.
Joseph, who had been in close contact with my dh for over two years, never called or emailed him again that I knew of. I have watched that tear my husband up.
I saw and heard from Angela just briefly a few times but it was clear that things are pretty much done there. Of all the relationships I have lost, that one is the saddest to me.
We also had a meeting with Bob and Jesse that was slightly more confrontational (we discussed some dynamics of our interactions as couples) but also more uplifting because they seemed to believe more of the abusive nature of what happened to us although the specifically told me that they didn't "want any details."
However, I recently got an email from Jessie (after a series of emails back and forth) that told me that I had "to take some responsibility for what happened to me." She apparently "knew" this because she had been talking to people about what happened.
I sent her a VERY not-nice email back letting her know that she had a lot of nerve sitting on my couch telling me she didn't want details of what happened from the person it happened to and then would turn around and talk to other people about it who weren't even there. (I was a little angry.) She (or someone) has since apparently been involved in spreading this gossip about me to other former friends as I recently found out.
A former acquaintance, Alice, told me that I have "a very rebellious spirit about many things regarding true submission and the Word and spiritual accountability." She later told me that it was clear that I am "not willing to reason with church leadership and other sisters in Christ who have known you much longer than myself."
So I'm not sure what people are hearing or from whom. It is apparent to me that these people who think that they knew or know me simply don't. They have been so deceived by their idea that their pastors are demi-gods who can do no evil, that they have become convinced that it must be ME who is at fault.
Talking To Pastors
I would like to say here that several people did go talk to the pastors (either Jeff or Derrick) because they were concerned about what had happened. Apparently, however, everything was nicely and neatly explained away. Jeff apparently clearly explained how "divisive" my husband and I were being. They have been and are simply telling people that we "chose" to leave. With no warning. With no "farewell party" or "goodbyes." (I cannot even believe that people would believe this.)
One husband of a friend told Derrick something akin to, "You put Frank up on the platform to speak at Victory Weekends like he was some kind of sexual dynamo. You paraded him as an example of how your marriage paradigm works. Now you're just going to say that they're leaving? That doesn't cut it." But nothing ever came of that that I know of.
We also found out that Jeff told one man that he knew that Derrick hadn't handled the situation well and that he himself would have handled it differently.
Two things about this made me upset. One, that our senior pastor had KNOWN that we had been wounded and were hurting and did nothing about it. That isn't pastoral. At all. He didn't email or call or attempt in any way to find out from us exactly what had happened. That, to me, in unconscionable.
Secondly, the fact that our friends, who knew everything that was said to us, defying all logic, compassion, and justice, would be placated. That hit me really hard as well.
I had a conversation with a friend member not too long ago who was and is deeply entrenched in their authority paradigm, in my opinion.
We talked about that first week and how offended she was that I had removed her as a facebook friend. She was also hurt that I hadn't called her to tell her what was going on and why we "chose" to leave.
I pointed out that I had actually contacted her right away to see if she was ok. I got no response back from my her. I later discovered that she had been "explaining" to people that we had left.
That should demonstrate how deeply the controlling nature of the church goes. This lady didn't even call me to find out what was going on. She just "trusted her leadership" when they told her we "chose" to leave. I pointed out to her that people inside the church and people outside the church had totally different reactions.
Why is that? It's because people inside of the church are actually loyal to that organization, more than to Jesus or his commission to help the wounded and hurting. They're not as loyal to their families. Or friends. Or loved ones. Or broken and wounded former church family members. As they are to the organization, to the institution that their lives are centered around.
And by definition, that is either a cult or a controlling and abusive environment. Everyone who isn't "in" is "out."
Aftershocks - Part I
As we got in the car to drive away, I think we began to realize what had just happened. That we had gotten railroaded. That we had decidedly not gotten treated "pastorally." Truth began to hit us like a ton of bricks. As did the dire nature of the situation. We most certainly did NOT want to lose our church family.
Facebook
One of the first things that I did when I got home was remove everyone from Milestone (including my sister) from my facebook account. That was about 200 people and was a heartbreaking experience for me. I felt that I had to protect myself, however, from being "spied upon" again.
The accusations that Derrick brought forth about people calling the church office being concerned about me because of my fb notes was probably completely fabricated but I didn't realize that at the time. I was paranoid and scared that someone else would be "leaking" my information to them. Also, at that time, I had no idea that you could simply block people, hide certain things, etc. The only thing I knew to do was to just disengage from anyone from church. In retrospect, I know that caused a lot of confusion for most people. Several people did message me and ask what had happened. For those people, we agreed to simply tell them that we had had falling out with church leadership over marital issues.
We knew that we could not tell people, "Oh yeah. We got kicked out. We knew that there would be an instant division and people's loyalty would be to their church, and not to us. We felt that we should not come between our friends and their spiritual family. So we agreed to only tell people more if they asked and if we felt that they really cared about us and weren't just trying to get "the scoop." Not many really ever got more information. We did get a lot of cult-like responses, though. For the most part, nobody even wanted to know what their church leadership believes about marriage that we disagree on. Some people didn't even message back. It's like we simply became invisible. Like we had never been there. At any rate, it was too much to contact 200 people, tell them we were leaving, and have them sort of non-respond.
We also knew that we couldn't continue to be close friends with people who didn't know what had happened. We knew that we couldn't stand to hear them talking about their church home (our church home) while we sat and listened.
This is the analogy I use to explain what it feels like: Imagine that your parents kick you out of the house in the cold and you just watch through the windows while your siblings and parents have a nice, warm party around a fire. Not only that, but they open their arms to complete strangers while you just sort of shiver and watch your family love one another. Nobody really is going to come outside and find out what happened anyway. It's too warm in there by the fire and feels too cozy to go stand outside with you and shiver.
So, knowing how people behave in this situation (having done so ourselves several times), we resigned ourselves to losing our entire friend base and spiritual family.
Verification
When we got home, my dh got on the phone to Bob asking him if he had told Derrick that I was the cause of all their marriage problems. Bob said that he had never said such a thing and has no idea where he could even have come up with this idea. He said that he had mentioned an incident that had happened a few years ago but was simply recounting it and not making any kind of statement about myself. (There were other issues that came up in that conversation that I might touch on later).
I called Jessica (the time frame gets muddy here. I believe it was the next night) and asked her point-blank, "Did I ever say to you that all Milestone teaches women is to pray, submit, and read their Bibles? Did I ever tell you any such thing? Because they are saying that I did and are trying to kick us out of our church."
Jessica appeared shocked and very upset. She was emphatic again and again that I never said anything like this to her. She said, "I swear, as God as my witness, you never said that and I will go to Pastor Jeff and speak with him about it."
I asked her, "Has anyone even talked to you about this?" Now here's the clincher. She said that Russell Ann had pulled her aside at ballet classes on Wednesday and asked her a few questions about who she had been talking to, what they had been saying, etc. I asked her if nobody had asked her anything before this Wednesday? No. Absolutely not.
AND THEN she says, "Well, I did talk to one STAFF WIFE who told me that I should leave my husband but then I went to see Janna after that." Did you catch that?
So the whole accusation that I was telling Jennifer anything at all was simply fabricated. I think it was just assumed that because I sent an email to Janna expressing my opinions that I had expressed them to a bunch of other people, too. And sadly, no one even bothered to verify that.
And furthermore, here I was being vilified for allegedly encouraging this woman to do destructive things to her marriage and in reality it was a paid staff member's wife who was doing it!
At any rate, I was confident that my friend Jessica would go and speak on my behalf to Jeff. I got a very short text message from her the next day that basically said, "It was nice knowing you. I hope your family turns out ok." Now I have absolutely no idea what happened between the time that she was very upset about what had happened to us and the time when she sent me that text. My guess is that she got a phone call from someone telling her that I am just "divisive" and am trying to "stir up trouble."
Along those same lines, something else really devastating was done. Remember how Derrick asked us not to tell anyone about what was going on? We tried to stick to that other than to talk to people who were directly involved, just to find out if what was said was truthful.
"Key Leaders"
Well the next day I got a phone call from a friend saying, "Hey, Derrick just called my husband
and told him that you guys were leaving the church? He said that he was notifying 'key leaders?'" You can imagine our dismay at having been told not to tell anyone only to have Derrick turn around and start calling people.
I will say, in the interest of full disclosure, that I did talk to two women who were not involved in this whole incident. One was a friend who was already somewhat disgruntled with how she was being treated in the church and one was just a close friend. I prefaced that conversation with, "I don't want to tell you anything that is going to affect your view of the church" and she assured me that she wanted to know what was going on, no matter what.
Now, it's funny to me that I feel that I have to explain the fact that I reached out to two people for support during this episode of our lives but, I am keenly aware, there will be people who will say, "See! You were trying to cause division! I knew it!" Of course, that is just silly. I was inviting people to Milestone the Friday before all of this happened, assuring them that they would never find a church home as connected and as like family as ours was.
Apparently, as a result of these calls to "key leaders" (or possibly because of the few calls we made to those involved), people at church on Sunday were already informing others that we had left the church. We were getting angry phone messages from Derrick wanting to know why we had told him that we were going to think about our decision and other people were wanting to know why we were leaving. We wrote a brief email that said this:
May 20
Derrick:
We won't be coming back to Milestone Church.
We won't be speaking with you or Jeff because we feel the first meeting was abusive.
If the church is getting phone calls about us leaving, we would suggest that this was instigated by phone calls made from you to "key leaders."
The Wells
I apparently didn't save the reply but I think it was very clipped and short and said something to the affect of "I understand."
More Fallout
On Friday the 15th, I had to take the children to a homeschool group event that we had already bought tickets for. Russell Ann and Angela were there as well as some of the other moms in the group. I sat with a good friend of mine to whom I had told the story (see below) at the opposite end of the row from Russell Ann and Angela. Tears were streaming down my face for the entire event. I kept thinking, "This is the last time I'm going to do this. This is the last time my children are going to see these children." I was heart-broken. I just tried to keep my face turned away because I didn't want Russell Ann or anyone else to see me broken-hearted. I had already been lectured on how women are too "emotional" and really didn't want to put myself in a place of vulnerability.
On Saturday night, we had some dear friends in town that we had known for years. They were attending Gateway that night and wanted to see us and invited us to go to church with them. I was really strongly resisting but my husband kept insisting that we should go because we were going to have to eventually. I submitted to his idea (ha ha) and got dressed to go. As the time was getting closer to leave, however, I found myself balled up on my bed sobbing. I felt like I was being asked to go on a date a few days after my spouse had died. I had a complete breakdown and announced that I couldn't go. I couldn't step foot inside a church. That it would be a long time before I could do so again. I tell this story simply to exemplify that this was a crushing experience for us mentally and spiritually. For months and months we would both have nightmares about all of it. I would burst into tears throughout the day. Eventually, I've had to get on anti-depressants just to deal with it all. I'm doing so much better now, but it really felt like it was going to just destroy our family.
More Verification
Also this next day or two after the meeting, I tried to contact Karly, whose husband I was accused of "counseling." I told her that I needed to talk to her and asked her if she had lied to me about why her husband no longer wanted to talk to us about marriage stuff.
(I didn't mention this in earlier posts but about the same time that this couple had started counseling with Derrick and Russell Ann the husband, Manny, started behaving very strangely toward me when he had previously been very friendly. I had called Karly and asked her, "What is going on with Manny? He seems to be acting strangely toward us and is definitely not talking about marriage stuff anymore." She simply said that she thought Derrick had advised her husband not to talk to anyone else about marriage but just to keep it between he and Derrick. She didn't indicate that there had been any kind of issue with me personally or with us. Yet it still bothered me. As I found out later, the problem wasn't really a problem at all. That was just another fabrication from Derrick. I'll get to that.)
At any rate, when I text message Karly asking her if she had lied to me, she got upset and swore that she had not and that she had no idea what I was talking about. The next day, I again tried to let her know that we needed to talk (I needed to verify what had been said). She sent me a text message back saying that she had to ask "permission" to talk to me and that it was fine as long as we didn't talk about "the issue."
I will just stop here for a minute to say that if you belong to a church where you have to ask "permission" to talk to people about things that directly involved them (or anything, really), there is something VERY wrong. I also noticed that nobody had to ask for "permission" to talk about me or to leave me completely out of the loop on things. This is another trait of controlling and abusive churches. When you are branded as an outsider, everyone shuts down around you.
But more on that later.
I later received this facebook message from Karly on August 10th that said this:
wow girl, it's been too long. i really don't know what to say, other than i am so sorry about everything that has
happened with Milestone, and although i do feel really bad, we honestly had NO idea it would turn into this. we both
went back to talk to Pastor Derrick about how something that just casually came out during one of our counseling
sessions, intending to be a positive example of something we had worked on and resolved, ended up
blowing up into the very painful scenario it did. and honestly we trust our pastors, and understand why PD felt he
needed to do what he needed to do, but nonetheless, it was still very difficult.
Please note the complete glossing over the fact that the "trusted pastor" completely misrepresented what was said. This is exactly the kind of environment that people are involved in. Some are more susceptible than others. But, overall, there is a VERY strong sense of, "If my pastors say it's ok, it must be ok." I used to fell the same way. I, too, turned my head too many times when I saw arrogance, mockery, etc. But I'll talk about that in a later post.
The Beginning of The End of Good Friendships
On Sunday, I called my good friend Angela and she was angry with me for not telling her that we were leaving. I tried to explain to her that we were told not to call anyone. She wanted to know how other people knew and I explained that the church itself had been calling people.
This was probably the very first time that we saw what we knew was coming: complete dissolution of most of our cherished relationships. We knew (because we had behaved the same way towards others) that we were now on the outside and would be looked at with suspicion. Watching that particular friendship slip away was like a knife in my heart.
The Last Bit of Verification
At this point, we have had three people tell us that their words were completely taken out of context or just weren't even aware that anything was going on.
What about the third issue or "accuser?" What about Tommy Briggs and what he said about all those women telling him that I was confusing him on marriage?
Here's what transpired via email prior to our meeting:
May 15
Janna and Tommy:
Frank and I need to get together with you as soon as possible. We are very concerned because if what is being said to us is true, we have had a breech of confidentiality and/or some grave misunderstandings.
Thanks,
Cathy
He responded:
May 17
We're way on an interview weekend.
Have Frank contact me next week and i'll try to hook up with him.
T
Please note that the original email was very clear that my husband and I wanted to meet with both Tommy and Janna. The reply email was directed to my husband alone and spoke nothing of Janna.
I responded:
May 18
Tommy:
I heard that you and Janna were away.
Frank and I aren't really interested in meeting anymore with anyone apart from one another as it is clear that this has caused major issues and disunity in our marriage. We would like to meet with you and Janna together and just briefly. It doesn't have to take much time.
We were ousted from the church this past week based in part on something that you and she allegedly told the pastoral staff and we just want to talk to you (for our own consciences) and find out the truth.
We are not interested in causing any divisions or problems in the church but we do feel we need to speak with the two of you and settle any misunderstandings or make any peace that is necessary.
Since this has been a very difficult week for us, we would like to bring some closure as soon as possible.
Thanks,
Cathy
I won't post the other two emails simply because they're very short and just basically say that Tommy is willing to meet with us (alone, sans Janna) at 10am after his morning workout at It's A Grind.
By this time, it's almost a week after that initial meeting. We were anxious to complete our "investigation" and were hopeful that we could still bring some sanity to the situation.
We sat down with Tommy in the coffee shop. We cut right to the chase. I told him, "Tommy, I'm going to tell you now what Derrick said that you said and I need you to be totally honest with me. I need to know if you said these things." I then related to Tommy what Derrick had said.
He looked at me in the eyes and shook his head and said, "No. No, I never said that."
I was taken aback. I think I was suddenly realizing a lot of things. A lot was sinking in.
I restated what I had said and asked, "Are you saying that you never said this? You do understand what I'm saying?"
"No. As I told you, I told Derrick whom I met with and I did tell him that some of the women were having issues about marital roles but I never mentioned your name at all. And the women themselves never mentioned your name. You never came up either in my conversations with the women or with Derrick."
I was really hopeful at this point. I knew that the Briggs were leaving and that they had a lot of influence in leadership. I was certain that the next words out of his mouth were going to be, "Hey, let me go talk to Derrick and we'll get this thing all straightened out." Sigh. That was not the case.
Instead he said something like, "You know, this kind of thing happens and you guys just need to go on in God and find a new church home."
I blinked. I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that now four people had seen the deceit and manipulation and just outright lying and were just letting it happen.
My husband tried to small talk a little bit and I just laid my hand on his thigh, indicating that I was done. I couldn't sit and listen to this man's plans to go minister in another church. I was so very, very disillusioned with character and truth and courage.
One of the first things that I did when I got home was remove everyone from Milestone (including my sister) from my facebook account. That was about 200 people and was a heartbreaking experience for me. I felt that I had to protect myself, however, from being "spied upon" again.
The accusations that Derrick brought forth about people calling the church office being concerned about me because of my fb notes was probably completely fabricated but I didn't realize that at the time. I was paranoid and scared that someone else would be "leaking" my information to them. Also, at that time, I had no idea that you could simply block people, hide certain things, etc. The only thing I knew to do was to just disengage from anyone from church. In retrospect, I know that caused a lot of confusion for most people. Several people did message me and ask what had happened. For those people, we agreed to simply tell them that we had had falling out with church leadership over marital issues.
We knew that we could not tell people, "Oh yeah. We got kicked out. We knew that there would be an instant division and people's loyalty would be to their church, and not to us. We felt that we should not come between our friends and their spiritual family. So we agreed to only tell people more if they asked and if we felt that they really cared about us and weren't just trying to get "the scoop." Not many really ever got more information. We did get a lot of cult-like responses, though. For the most part, nobody even wanted to know what their church leadership believes about marriage that we disagree on. Some people didn't even message back. It's like we simply became invisible. Like we had never been there. At any rate, it was too much to contact 200 people, tell them we were leaving, and have them sort of non-respond.
We also knew that we couldn't continue to be close friends with people who didn't know what had happened. We knew that we couldn't stand to hear them talking about their church home (our church home) while we sat and listened.
This is the analogy I use to explain what it feels like: Imagine that your parents kick you out of the house in the cold and you just watch through the windows while your siblings and parents have a nice, warm party around a fire. Not only that, but they open their arms to complete strangers while you just sort of shiver and watch your family love one another. Nobody really is going to come outside and find out what happened anyway. It's too warm in there by the fire and feels too cozy to go stand outside with you and shiver.
So, knowing how people behave in this situation (having done so ourselves several times), we resigned ourselves to losing our entire friend base and spiritual family.
Verification
When we got home, my dh got on the phone to Bob asking him if he had told Derrick that I was the cause of all their marriage problems. Bob said that he had never said such a thing and has no idea where he could even have come up with this idea. He said that he had mentioned an incident that had happened a few years ago but was simply recounting it and not making any kind of statement about myself. (There were other issues that came up in that conversation that I might touch on later).
I called Jessica (the time frame gets muddy here. I believe it was the next night) and asked her point-blank, "Did I ever say to you that all Milestone teaches women is to pray, submit, and read their Bibles? Did I ever tell you any such thing? Because they are saying that I did and are trying to kick us out of our church."
Jessica appeared shocked and very upset. She was emphatic again and again that I never said anything like this to her. She said, "I swear, as God as my witness, you never said that and I will go to Pastor Jeff and speak with him about it."
I asked her, "Has anyone even talked to you about this?" Now here's the clincher. She said that Russell Ann had pulled her aside at ballet classes on Wednesday and asked her a few questions about who she had been talking to, what they had been saying, etc. I asked her if nobody had asked her anything before this Wednesday? No. Absolutely not.
AND THEN she says, "Well, I did talk to one STAFF WIFE who told me that I should leave my husband but then I went to see Janna after that." Did you catch that?
So the whole accusation that I was telling Jennifer anything at all was simply fabricated. I think it was just assumed that because I sent an email to Janna expressing my opinions that I had expressed them to a bunch of other people, too. And sadly, no one even bothered to verify that.
And furthermore, here I was being vilified for allegedly encouraging this woman to do destructive things to her marriage and in reality it was a paid staff member's wife who was doing it!
At any rate, I was confident that my friend Jessica would go and speak on my behalf to Jeff. I got a very short text message from her the next day that basically said, "It was nice knowing you. I hope your family turns out ok." Now I have absolutely no idea what happened between the time that she was very upset about what had happened to us and the time when she sent me that text. My guess is that she got a phone call from someone telling her that I am just "divisive" and am trying to "stir up trouble."
Along those same lines, something else really devastating was done. Remember how Derrick asked us not to tell anyone about what was going on? We tried to stick to that other than to talk to people who were directly involved, just to find out if what was said was truthful.
"Key Leaders"
Well the next day I got a phone call from a friend saying, "Hey, Derrick just called my husband
and told him that you guys were leaving the church? He said that he was notifying 'key leaders?'" You can imagine our dismay at having been told not to tell anyone only to have Derrick turn around and start calling people.
I will say, in the interest of full disclosure, that I did talk to two women who were not involved in this whole incident. One was a friend who was already somewhat disgruntled with how she was being treated in the church and one was just a close friend. I prefaced that conversation with, "I don't want to tell you anything that is going to affect your view of the church" and she assured me that she wanted to know what was going on, no matter what.
Now, it's funny to me that I feel that I have to explain the fact that I reached out to two people for support during this episode of our lives but, I am keenly aware, there will be people who will say, "See! You were trying to cause division! I knew it!" Of course, that is just silly. I was inviting people to Milestone the Friday before all of this happened, assuring them that they would never find a church home as connected and as like family as ours was.
Apparently, as a result of these calls to "key leaders" (or possibly because of the few calls we made to those involved), people at church on Sunday were already informing others that we had left the church. We were getting angry phone messages from Derrick wanting to know why we had told him that we were going to think about our decision and other people were wanting to know why we were leaving. We wrote a brief email that said this:
May 20
Derrick:
We won't be coming back to Milestone Church.
We won't be speaking with you or Jeff because we feel the first meeting was abusive.
If the church is getting phone calls about us leaving, we would suggest that this was instigated by phone calls made from you to "key leaders."
The Wells
I apparently didn't save the reply but I think it was very clipped and short and said something to the affect of "I understand."
More Fallout
On Friday the 15th, I had to take the children to a homeschool group event that we had already bought tickets for. Russell Ann and Angela were there as well as some of the other moms in the group. I sat with a good friend of mine to whom I had told the story (see below) at the opposite end of the row from Russell Ann and Angela. Tears were streaming down my face for the entire event. I kept thinking, "This is the last time I'm going to do this. This is the last time my children are going to see these children." I was heart-broken. I just tried to keep my face turned away because I didn't want Russell Ann or anyone else to see me broken-hearted. I had already been lectured on how women are too "emotional" and really didn't want to put myself in a place of vulnerability.
On Saturday night, we had some dear friends in town that we had known for years. They were attending Gateway that night and wanted to see us and invited us to go to church with them. I was really strongly resisting but my husband kept insisting that we should go because we were going to have to eventually. I submitted to his idea (ha ha) and got dressed to go. As the time was getting closer to leave, however, I found myself balled up on my bed sobbing. I felt like I was being asked to go on a date a few days after my spouse had died. I had a complete breakdown and announced that I couldn't go. I couldn't step foot inside a church. That it would be a long time before I could do so again. I tell this story simply to exemplify that this was a crushing experience for us mentally and spiritually. For months and months we would both have nightmares about all of it. I would burst into tears throughout the day. Eventually, I've had to get on anti-depressants just to deal with it all. I'm doing so much better now, but it really felt like it was going to just destroy our family.
More Verification
Also this next day or two after the meeting, I tried to contact Karly, whose husband I was accused of "counseling." I told her that I needed to talk to her and asked her if she had lied to me about why her husband no longer wanted to talk to us about marriage stuff.
(I didn't mention this in earlier posts but about the same time that this couple had started counseling with Derrick and Russell Ann the husband, Manny, started behaving very strangely toward me when he had previously been very friendly. I had called Karly and asked her, "What is going on with Manny? He seems to be acting strangely toward us and is definitely not talking about marriage stuff anymore." She simply said that she thought Derrick had advised her husband not to talk to anyone else about marriage but just to keep it between he and Derrick. She didn't indicate that there had been any kind of issue with me personally or with us. Yet it still bothered me. As I found out later, the problem wasn't really a problem at all. That was just another fabrication from Derrick. I'll get to that.)
At any rate, when I text message Karly asking her if she had lied to me, she got upset and swore that she had not and that she had no idea what I was talking about. The next day, I again tried to let her know that we needed to talk (I needed to verify what had been said). She sent me a text message back saying that she had to ask "permission" to talk to me and that it was fine as long as we didn't talk about "the issue."
I will just stop here for a minute to say that if you belong to a church where you have to ask "permission" to talk to people about things that directly involved them (or anything, really), there is something VERY wrong. I also noticed that nobody had to ask for "permission" to talk about me or to leave me completely out of the loop on things. This is another trait of controlling and abusive churches. When you are branded as an outsider, everyone shuts down around you.
But more on that later.
I later received this facebook message from Karly on August 10th that said this:
wow girl, it's been too long. i really don't know what to say, other than i am so sorry about everything that has
happened with Milestone, and although i do feel really bad, we honestly had NO idea it would turn into this. we both
went back to talk to Pastor Derrick about how something that just casually came out during one of our counseling
sessions, intending to be a positive example of something we had worked on and resolved, ended up
blowing up into the very painful scenario it did. and honestly we trust our pastors, and understand why PD felt he
needed to do what he needed to do, but nonetheless, it was still very difficult.
Please note the complete glossing over the fact that the "trusted pastor" completely misrepresented what was said. This is exactly the kind of environment that people are involved in. Some are more susceptible than others. But, overall, there is a VERY strong sense of, "If my pastors say it's ok, it must be ok." I used to fell the same way. I, too, turned my head too many times when I saw arrogance, mockery, etc. But I'll talk about that in a later post.
The Beginning of The End of Good Friendships
On Sunday, I called my good friend Angela and she was angry with me for not telling her that we were leaving. I tried to explain to her that we were told not to call anyone. She wanted to know how other people knew and I explained that the church itself had been calling people.
This was probably the very first time that we saw what we knew was coming: complete dissolution of most of our cherished relationships. We knew (because we had behaved the same way towards others) that we were now on the outside and would be looked at with suspicion. Watching that particular friendship slip away was like a knife in my heart.
The Last Bit of Verification
At this point, we have had three people tell us that their words were completely taken out of context or just weren't even aware that anything was going on.
What about the third issue or "accuser?" What about Tommy Briggs and what he said about all those women telling him that I was confusing him on marriage?
Here's what transpired via email prior to our meeting:
May 15
Janna and Tommy:
Frank and I need to get together with you as soon as possible. We are very concerned because if what is being said to us is true, we have had a breech of confidentiality and/or some grave misunderstandings.
Thanks,
Cathy
He responded:
May 17
We're way on an interview weekend.
Have Frank contact me next week and i'll try to hook up with him.
T
Please note that the original email was very clear that my husband and I wanted to meet with both Tommy and Janna. The reply email was directed to my husband alone and spoke nothing of Janna.
I responded:
May 18
Tommy:
I heard that you and Janna were away.
Frank and I aren't really interested in meeting anymore with anyone apart from one another as it is clear that this has caused major issues and disunity in our marriage. We would like to meet with you and Janna together and just briefly. It doesn't have to take much time.
We were ousted from the church this past week based in part on something that you and she allegedly told the pastoral staff and we just want to talk to you (for our own consciences) and find out the truth.
We are not interested in causing any divisions or problems in the church but we do feel we need to speak with the two of you and settle any misunderstandings or make any peace that is necessary.
Since this has been a very difficult week for us, we would like to bring some closure as soon as possible.
Thanks,
Cathy
I won't post the other two emails simply because they're very short and just basically say that Tommy is willing to meet with us (alone, sans Janna) at 10am after his morning workout at It's A Grind.
By this time, it's almost a week after that initial meeting. We were anxious to complete our "investigation" and were hopeful that we could still bring some sanity to the situation.
We sat down with Tommy in the coffee shop. We cut right to the chase. I told him, "Tommy, I'm going to tell you now what Derrick said that you said and I need you to be totally honest with me. I need to know if you said these things." I then related to Tommy what Derrick had said.
He looked at me in the eyes and shook his head and said, "No. No, I never said that."
I was taken aback. I think I was suddenly realizing a lot of things. A lot was sinking in.
I restated what I had said and asked, "Are you saying that you never said this? You do understand what I'm saying?"
"No. As I told you, I told Derrick whom I met with and I did tell him that some of the women were having issues about marital roles but I never mentioned your name at all. And the women themselves never mentioned your name. You never came up either in my conversations with the women or with Derrick."
I was really hopeful at this point. I knew that the Briggs were leaving and that they had a lot of influence in leadership. I was certain that the next words out of his mouth were going to be, "Hey, let me go talk to Derrick and we'll get this thing all straightened out." Sigh. That was not the case.
Instead he said something like, "You know, this kind of thing happens and you guys just need to go on in God and find a new church home."
I blinked. I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that now four people had seen the deceit and manipulation and just outright lying and were just letting it happen.
My husband tried to small talk a little bit and I just laid my hand on his thigh, indicating that I was done. I couldn't sit and listen to this man's plans to go minister in another church. I was so very, very disillusioned with character and truth and courage.
Hell Week - Part III
We found a sitter for our children and headed over to the Wilson's home at the appointed time. We stopped at the end of their street by the park to pray that things would go well. I particularly prayed that I would not fly off the handle and would remain calm and level-headed. The Lord graciously helped me to do just that and I thank Him for it as it is probably not normal for me!
Derrick texted my dh that they were in the backyard. We entered the side gate and found their entire family eating outside. We had a seat and waited until they were done and the children had been ushered inside.
I got the very distinct feeling right off the bat that things weren't going to go well. I could see the outcome of this meeting well in advance, before even a word had been spoken.
I could try to recount the entire conversation ver batim but I think that would just take too long. I will try to accurately write down what was said in as brief a manner as possible. It had to have been at least two hours long, although I didn't look at my phone to tell the time.
During this meeting, Derrick kept looking at his phone as though he weren't even really that interested in what was going on. It was pretty distracting. The whole time, I noticed that Derrick had a sort of vapid, disconnected look in his eyes. It were almost as if he had become emotionless or had shifted into "business mode." This was very difficult as the subject matter was so painful for us and we didn't seem to be getting any kind of emotional connection back from him.
We had been advised by a friend that perhaps it would be best to start off with the idea that we know that we had done some injury to them so perhaps we should address that first. I said, "It appears that we are hurt and that we have hurt you and we would like to talk about how we have hurt you."
This was met with immediate responses by both of them.
"No. No. We're not hurt. We are confused, but we're not hurt."
(This is, in my opinion, a tactic of disconnecting from people and placing yourself in a safer, superior position. It's a form of, "I am not susceptible to you" or "I am in charge here." But again, I digress.)
Unforgiveness
From there, we moved right into talking about what was going on with my feeling unforgiveness toward Russell Ann.
I tried to explain that I was working through a process of forgiveness. I explained that I had realized that I needed to talk to them and was trying to reconnect when the email from Janna got forwarded. I tried to explain that I was, indeed, working on forgiveness and was making progress.
At this point, Russell Ann began to talk to me about how there is a certain "period of grace" that God gives us for forgiveness. A time when His mercy rests on us as we work through things. But, just as in the Bible, that time expires and then (and this is her quote): "things come back to bite us in the butt like this." Besides the fact that there certainly is no timeline for forgiveness and that God himself stayed angry with the Israelite for many years, I look back and find this language to be very punitive.
Disobedience and Marriage
Derrick then brought up the point that Frank (as revealed in their meeting the day before) had been trying to get me to talk to Russell Ann and that I had refused. This is where things started to get bad. Derrick told me that I was "disobedient" and "rebellious" for not listening to my husband.
Russell Ann quickly followed up with, "Well, maybe not disobedient but not submissive."
Then Derrick looked at my husband and began to tell him that he (and these are direct quotes) "Has no authority in his home" because he could not get me to obey him.
He told me that my “sin” of disobedience to Frank was like unto a practicing homosexual who goes to church and then prays for God’s blessing. “God cannot hear your prayers. He cannot bless you.”
I was repeatedly told that I was in rebellion and disobedience.
While we were discussing obedience and submission, Derrick made the statement that men have to "frame reality" for their wives. Wives are too emotional to think for themselves and men have to help them see things correctly. You may want to re-read that. I assure you that is a commonly held belief among the leadership as I have seen it many times on people's facebook pages, etc.
Then, as he began discussing my previous notes I'd written on facebook (more on that later), he said that to my dh, "I don't trust you. Because you came into my office and said that you didn't think that these facebook notes were appropriate and now you're saying something different. I can never trust you again."
In fact, at one point, he said something close to, "You'll never be trustworthy!"
I interrupted and said, "No. We're not going to say that." I was very upset at the way that Derrick was treating my husband who had looked up to him as a father figure for years and admired him as much as anyone else in the world. It was very hard to listen to him accusing him and attacking and just berating him. :o(
Divisiveness
From there, we moved into a discussion about all the "trouble" that I was causing at the church. Not we, mind you. I. Cathy.
Here we discuss another couple, we'll call them Bob and Jessie. Derrick said this: "I was talking to Bob about a marriage issue they’re currently having (now adamantly): which I will not discuss here. I started asking him questions and it finally got down to the fact that around a year ago Bob and Jessie were talking about something that Cathy had said to her and Bob told Jessie that she was not to take counsel from Cathy anymore. So, Cathy, at the bottom of their marriage problems was…you.” Imagine being told that you were "at the bottom" of someone else's marriage problems.
Derrick never said what it was that I had said to Jessie that was upsetting so it could have been “submit and shut up” or it could have been “bash him in the head with a baseball bat.” I really did have and do have no idea.
He specifically said that this incident has taken place about a year prior. This is a convenient time frame since I had already told him that my issues with Russell Ann had started about a year prior. In truth, however, this incident happened three years prior as I later found out. Again, truth was overlooked to suit a purpose. It wouldn't have been as derogatory if he had said, "The problem was three years ago but everything seems to have been fine since them between you all and there really don't seem to be any problems."
When I asked him why he didn’t encourage Bob to come and talk to me or Frank he said that “Bob wasn’t offended. He didn't have an offense.” I responded that I felt that this was unbiblical and that, in fact, that Bob had caused some disunity, not me.
I was emphatically told that, no, it was me who had caused disunity. When I asked if this wasn’t a problem with Bob walking in brotherly love, I was told that it wasn’t about Bob. That Bob wasn’t on “trial.” Apparently, I was, though. And that is exactly how I was feeling. Under fire and attacked.
I was told that the bible commands me to go and get things worked out immediately (according to Matthew 18:15-22) but when I asked why this same principle wasn't being applied to those who were "accusing" me, there was no response.
Next Derrick repeatedly told me that I had caused confusion and disunity in the church but I was never told WHO said WHAT exactly. There just seemed to be some nebulous allegations.
Derrick told us that Tommy had come to him and reported that he was counseling several women who were expressing confusion about marriage paradigms. He said that when he sat down with Tommy to talk about it, Tommy told him that every one of these women had been speaking to me and that I was the cause of confusion. I believe his exact words were, again, "There is only one person that all of these problems have in common. And that's you, Cathy." This was, as it turns out, a complete and utter lie. But I'll get to that later.
Women Counselors
We were also talked to about an incident that we had with Manny and Karly. Remember them? The couple who had also struggled with anger issues? One night, we had all been in our kitchen discussing marriage relationships. Of course, I had listened to what Manny had to say about my anger. Then we started talking about his issue with co-dependence, I believe. Karly, my husband, and myself were all in agreement that he had an issue with this but I was the most outspoken. Probably because I felt an affinity with him because of the anger issue and I'm naturally outspoken.
At any rate, this is what Derrick had to say about that. "I spoke with Manny and he says that you tried to counsel him. He says that you were very FORCEFUL in trying to counsel him. That is not acceptable. Women do NOT counsel men."
At this point, my dh broke in and said, "Now wait a minute. I was there in the room. We were all talking as a group. Are you saying that's not ok?"
"Absolutely not. Women are not to counsel men. Even if their husbands are there."
Biblically, this is ridiculous and I could go into all the examples of women counseling men (Deborah being a noted one) but I won't do that here. It was clear that the male-authority paradigm was tantamount.
Facebook
We were also told that “lots of people” were calling the church asking about my facebook posts. Now, in case you're wondering about my facebook notes, here is a brief rundown.
One had to do with how I didn't want to be the kind of woman whose main character quality was "submissive." I wanted to be bold, an adventurer, like Deborah.
The second had to do with how I was sick of religious Christians who act as though there is one, black-and-white Biblical solution to any problem and try to force-feed their version of truth to others.
At this point, Russell Ann did something that I consider very demeaning and wish that I had prevented. She insisted (after my repeated protestations) on getting a computer and looking at my facebook notes. She read them aloud to everyone and proceeded to chastise me for how angry I sounded. She then lectured me on how she had recently been to a woman's conference where the speaker was a very strong woman but was also submissive and not "angry" sounding.
Then, Russell Ann made a statement that shocks me to this day and really tells me that something is, indeed, very wrong. She looked at me and said, "I reread the story of Deborah this morning just to make sure I wasn't missing something and I saw that Deborah was VERY submissive."
I think I blinked. Wow. I still do not know how to process this. Deborah was the leader of an entire nation and the general of the entire army came to her and basically bowed down to her and begged for her help. She even ridiculed him for asking for a woman's help. Her husband is only mentioned by name once. Their relationship is never discussed at all. Indeed, all we know about Deborah is that she was a national leader, a judge, a prophetess, men submitted to her, and that she won a war and then sang about how awesome the women were. To say that she is "submissive" is incomprehensible to me. Still.
More Divisiveness
At any rate, we went on to talk about these "divisive" actions that I had taken. Derrick wanted to know exactly what I had against Russell Ann that I was not forgiving her for. I explained that the year prior when I was told, "Christian wives don't leave there husbands," that there was a real break-down.
Russell Ann sort of gently poo-pooed me saying that I should have know that is not what she meant.
I gently reminded her that she had once advised me that if other people are misconstruing our words, we really need to evaluate how we are coming across. That we cannot dismiss the interpretation of others. She seemed to almost accept that, which I thought was nice. She stated that we had had a relationship that was part friend, part mentor. I agreed with her on that and told her that I had since realized that I had been looking for someone to mother me and that, in reality, no one was going to do that. I should not have looked to her to mother me because that was God's job now.
Dysfunctional?
During this entire meeting, Derrick repeatedly told us that we were dysfunctional. Even pointing his finger in my dh's face once as he said it. He told me that I am a "hurt person who is projecting hurt onto those around me and causing confusion in the church." (In retrospect, I think this was probably supposed to be a little more stinging but we had spent the entire previous year talking about how dysfunctional we have been so it really wasn't much of an insult.)
We repeatedly tried to assure him that, in fact, we were more functional now than ever and were getting a good deal of help. We were summarily argued with. He was emphatic that we were NOT functional.
At this point I said, "But Derrick, everyone is dysfunctional."
"No."
"No? Everyone is not dysfunctional?"
"No."
I replied, "I'm sorry but you know that we all have a sin nature. We will always have a sin nature. Are you saying that we don't all have a sin nature?"
The remarkable happened. For the first time during this whole conversation, a veil lifted off of Derrick's eyes. For a split second I thought that he was actually looking at me as though I were a real person. I suppose that being confronted with this obvious truth might have given him pause. I had a glimmer of hope that perhaps reason who prevail. And then it was gone. He just went on talking about how we were dysfunctional and broken and hurting and hurting others.
Mutual Submission
At some point during this discussion, my dh was trying to explain that we believe in the concept of mutual submission.
We insisted that we had tried their marriage paradigm and that it did not work for us. Immediately they responded, "No. You misapplied the paradigm." We rebutted, "No. It didn't work for us. We applied it just as you suggested." They were still insistent that we must have been making some kind of error since it didn't "work."
At this point, seeing that my husband was under more attack from Derrick about our marriage, I said something like this, "Now wait a minute. He has been a leader at Victory Weekend and has been taught this paradigm by you. Don't you think that some of this responsibility for the "misapplication" of the paradigm can be shared by the church?" This was not a favorable idea. (In fact, not once during the entire meeting did Derrick or Russell Ann take any ownership that they themselves or the church or ANYONE had played a part in any of this but us.)
We kept trying to explain that we felt our new belief was best for our marriage, that it was totally biblical, and that we were MUCH healthier since we'd instituted it.
This was met with a very strong negative reaction. Almost an aversion, I would say. There was an immediate, "No. No." and a moving back away from the table on the part of Derrick.
I tried to point out that many solid Christians believe in this concept. This was met with, "That may be. But that is not how we operate at Milestone." Upon further trying to explain what we believe, I pointed out that surely we don't all have to believe the same thing to go to the same church.
Russell Ann replied that among the marriages on staff, there were many varied personalities and people. That no two marriages look exactly alike. That there was room for some variation. But she emphatically stated that there was NEVER that much variation. That all the marriages had a male-authority basis and that no other paradigm was acceptable in leadership.
E-mail
Then there was a segue into the email that I had sent Jeff the previous year. I had printed it out and handed it to them, highlighting the part that had to do with confusion on women's roles. I told them that I wanted them to know that I had tried to figure this out and wasn't inactive on the topic. I also let them know that the email was never answered.
At this point Derrick said something very strange. He sort of jumped on my dh and said, "Why does your wife need to send an email to another man to get these questions answered?" Now for one thing, this is strange because the email was to my pastor and was specifically about women's roles in the church. Something my husband clearly doesn't answer about because he's not in charge there.
Two, he had already established that I was to "submit to" my husband in all things. Now he is saying that not EVEN THE PASTORS should have more of a say in our marriage than my husband. My husband has already told him that he believed that mutual submission was best for our marriage. So, the big question is: If my husband decides upon mutual submission, am I not rebelling against him if I refuse this idea?
Why does he, a pastor, have any problem with this decision of ours if he believes that I am to look only to my husband for guidance? Why is he spending any time arguing with us about this at all? The answer is, of course, that this was all just a desperate attempt to latch onto something to accuse us with when there really was nothing there.
What We Tell Women
During this long conversation, there were several emphatic statements that Milestone does not "simply teach women to submit, pray, and read their Bibles." I found it very strange that the man sitting there telling me that I am "disobedient" and "rebellious" for not obeying my husband was trying to convince us that there is no bias against women in the church. If the situation hadn't been so dire, I would have found it funny. It was so incredibly ironic.
Earlier in the conversation, I was grilled about to whom I had communicated that the church taught women to "submit, pray, and read their Bibles."
I replied that I didn't think that I had communicated that to anyone except in the email to Janna. I stated that I had pointed out that I felt differently than some of the staff women about marriage but I was careful not to be outright attacking of their beliefs. (In retrospect, I believe that I may have come across that way to one woman: Karly. This was probably more because she expressed to me that the old "submit" system wasn't working for her. I was probably pretty clear that I felt she needed to seek help outside the church and learn to draw boundaries.)
Unity
At this point, Russell Ann told me that I was wrong and causing division because I was "differentiating" between what I believed and what the leadership believed. It is very important to understand their definition of "unity." Unity means thinking the same way as they do on certain issues. There is no room for disagreement, though it be biblically based and well-thought out. Even if a majority of respected Christians believe the opposing view. This is one major red-flag of a controlling church and of spiritual abuse. In fact, unity is NOT thinking alike. It is learning to walk together even when you disagree on these issues.
Boundaries
Another interesting note that is that at one point, Derrick said to me, "Cathy you seem to talk a lot about 'boundaries.' You seem to focus a lot on 'boundaries.'" I replied that yes, that is correct. I just find this odd because although my dh had taken the time a year prior to make sure that we were on the same page as our leadership on this issue and that Derrick had assured him that we were, it was obvious that that was not true. "Boundaries" is not an idea that is accepted at Milestone, particularly for women.
Celebrate Recovery
Another odd note was that at one point, Derrick started questioning us about our CR group. Only he referred to it in this manner: "This Celebrate Recovery group that is 'supposedly' out of Rick Warren's church." I was taken aback by the immaturity of this statement. It was as though he thought we were making up the origins of our group.
I simply replied that CR was, indeed, out of Saddleback Church in California and that it was written on the cover of every one of their books. What this says to me is that the idea that a well-respected pastor such as Rick Warren would sanction something that teaches people that they are "broken and dysfunctional" for life is a concept foreign to Milestone leadership. But I will talk about this in a later post.
Names, We Want Names
Late in the evening, the Wilsons wanted to know where I was getting this idea that Milestone was biased against women. I really wanted to just point to the very conversation we were having but instead replied that I wasn't going to do to anyone else what was being done to me. I was having slanderous accusations brought before me with absolutely no evidence and no one there to verify the truth. I was being told that I was not following proper biblical protocol for restoring relationships and yet the fact that this was not being done for me either seemed to be completely overlooked.
Coldness
Now, having no real basis for "divisiveness" as we had answered and explained every accusation, this was the final result: "Look, here's the bottom line. You guys have different beliefs on marriage than we do. You need to find a church that agrees with you."
I looked across the table at Derrick as he paused. I allowed myself, for the first time that night, to get emotional just a bit. My eyes teared up. I said to him, "Derrick, this is our family that we are talking about. Our family. How can you be so cold and clinical?"
His reply: "I don't know any other way to be."
My heart just dropped.
Ultimatums
He proceeded to say, "If you guys want to stay at Milestone, this is what you have to agree to: You can't tell anyone the name of your counselor. You can't tell anyone what books on marriage you are reading. You can't tell anyone what groups you are going to outside of the church. And if anyone asks you for marital help you must refer them to the leadership. You are not to refer anyone anywhere else or give any advice. You guys are broken and dysfunctional and have no business advising anyone on marriage."
My husband spoke up. This was a deal-breaker for him. "We cannot agree to do that. We cannot agree to not tell people where we're getting help."
Conclusion
How the conversation ended was by my dh saying that we would take a month off and think about what we wanted to do. He asked Derrick what we should tell people. Derrick was emphatic that we NOT tell anyone anything. He told us not to call anyone or talk to anyone about it at all. (Why we agreed to is beyond me. Of course, why we sat and listened to any of this is beyond me at this point.)
Also, Derrick did say, "If you want, you can go talk to Pastor Jeff but I can tell you that we're on the same page." (After meeting with some other people who had been pushed out of the church, we determined that this was probably true and was only confirmed later, which you'll see in the next post.)
As we were walking out I asked Derrick if he had happened to record our conversation because he kept placing his iphone in the middle of the table in a particular fashion. He replied that he had not. At that point, I was beginning to wish that I had!
Derrick texted my dh that they were in the backyard. We entered the side gate and found their entire family eating outside. We had a seat and waited until they were done and the children had been ushered inside.
I got the very distinct feeling right off the bat that things weren't going to go well. I could see the outcome of this meeting well in advance, before even a word had been spoken.
I could try to recount the entire conversation ver batim but I think that would just take too long. I will try to accurately write down what was said in as brief a manner as possible. It had to have been at least two hours long, although I didn't look at my phone to tell the time.
During this meeting, Derrick kept looking at his phone as though he weren't even really that interested in what was going on. It was pretty distracting. The whole time, I noticed that Derrick had a sort of vapid, disconnected look in his eyes. It were almost as if he had become emotionless or had shifted into "business mode." This was very difficult as the subject matter was so painful for us and we didn't seem to be getting any kind of emotional connection back from him.
We had been advised by a friend that perhaps it would be best to start off with the idea that we know that we had done some injury to them so perhaps we should address that first. I said, "It appears that we are hurt and that we have hurt you and we would like to talk about how we have hurt you."
This was met with immediate responses by both of them.
"No. No. We're not hurt. We are confused, but we're not hurt."
(This is, in my opinion, a tactic of disconnecting from people and placing yourself in a safer, superior position. It's a form of, "I am not susceptible to you" or "I am in charge here." But again, I digress.)
Unforgiveness
From there, we moved right into talking about what was going on with my feeling unforgiveness toward Russell Ann.
I tried to explain that I was working through a process of forgiveness. I explained that I had realized that I needed to talk to them and was trying to reconnect when the email from Janna got forwarded. I tried to explain that I was, indeed, working on forgiveness and was making progress.
At this point, Russell Ann began to talk to me about how there is a certain "period of grace" that God gives us for forgiveness. A time when His mercy rests on us as we work through things. But, just as in the Bible, that time expires and then (and this is her quote): "things come back to bite us in the butt like this." Besides the fact that there certainly is no timeline for forgiveness and that God himself stayed angry with the Israelite for many years, I look back and find this language to be very punitive.
Disobedience and Marriage
Derrick then brought up the point that Frank (as revealed in their meeting the day before) had been trying to get me to talk to Russell Ann and that I had refused. This is where things started to get bad. Derrick told me that I was "disobedient" and "rebellious" for not listening to my husband.
Russell Ann quickly followed up with, "Well, maybe not disobedient but not submissive."
Then Derrick looked at my husband and began to tell him that he (and these are direct quotes) "Has no authority in his home" because he could not get me to obey him.
He told me that my “sin” of disobedience to Frank was like unto a practicing homosexual who goes to church and then prays for God’s blessing. “God cannot hear your prayers. He cannot bless you.”
I was repeatedly told that I was in rebellion and disobedience.
While we were discussing obedience and submission, Derrick made the statement that men have to "frame reality" for their wives. Wives are too emotional to think for themselves and men have to help them see things correctly. You may want to re-read that. I assure you that is a commonly held belief among the leadership as I have seen it many times on people's facebook pages, etc.
Then, as he began discussing my previous notes I'd written on facebook (more on that later), he said that to my dh, "I don't trust you. Because you came into my office and said that you didn't think that these facebook notes were appropriate and now you're saying something different. I can never trust you again."
In fact, at one point, he said something close to, "You'll never be trustworthy!"
I interrupted and said, "No. We're not going to say that." I was very upset at the way that Derrick was treating my husband who had looked up to him as a father figure for years and admired him as much as anyone else in the world. It was very hard to listen to him accusing him and attacking and just berating him. :o(
Divisiveness
From there, we moved into a discussion about all the "trouble" that I was causing at the church. Not we, mind you. I. Cathy.
Here we discuss another couple, we'll call them Bob and Jessie. Derrick said this: "I was talking to Bob about a marriage issue they’re currently having (now adamantly): which I will not discuss here. I started asking him questions and it finally got down to the fact that around a year ago Bob and Jessie were talking about something that Cathy had said to her and Bob told Jessie that she was not to take counsel from Cathy anymore. So, Cathy, at the bottom of their marriage problems was…you.” Imagine being told that you were "at the bottom" of someone else's marriage problems.
Derrick never said what it was that I had said to Jessie that was upsetting so it could have been “submit and shut up” or it could have been “bash him in the head with a baseball bat.” I really did have and do have no idea.
He specifically said that this incident has taken place about a year prior. This is a convenient time frame since I had already told him that my issues with Russell Ann had started about a year prior. In truth, however, this incident happened three years prior as I later found out. Again, truth was overlooked to suit a purpose. It wouldn't have been as derogatory if he had said, "The problem was three years ago but everything seems to have been fine since them between you all and there really don't seem to be any problems."
When I asked him why he didn’t encourage Bob to come and talk to me or Frank he said that “Bob wasn’t offended. He didn't have an offense.” I responded that I felt that this was unbiblical and that, in fact, that Bob had caused some disunity, not me.
I was emphatically told that, no, it was me who had caused disunity. When I asked if this wasn’t a problem with Bob walking in brotherly love, I was told that it wasn’t about Bob. That Bob wasn’t on “trial.” Apparently, I was, though. And that is exactly how I was feeling. Under fire and attacked.
I was told that the bible commands me to go and get things worked out immediately (according to Matthew 18:15-22) but when I asked why this same principle wasn't being applied to those who were "accusing" me, there was no response.
Next Derrick repeatedly told me that I had caused confusion and disunity in the church but I was never told WHO said WHAT exactly. There just seemed to be some nebulous allegations.
Derrick told us that Tommy had come to him and reported that he was counseling several women who were expressing confusion about marriage paradigms. He said that when he sat down with Tommy to talk about it, Tommy told him that every one of these women had been speaking to me and that I was the cause of confusion. I believe his exact words were, again, "There is only one person that all of these problems have in common. And that's you, Cathy." This was, as it turns out, a complete and utter lie. But I'll get to that later.
Women Counselors
We were also talked to about an incident that we had with Manny and Karly. Remember them? The couple who had also struggled with anger issues? One night, we had all been in our kitchen discussing marriage relationships. Of course, I had listened to what Manny had to say about my anger. Then we started talking about his issue with co-dependence, I believe. Karly, my husband, and myself were all in agreement that he had an issue with this but I was the most outspoken. Probably because I felt an affinity with him because of the anger issue and I'm naturally outspoken.
At any rate, this is what Derrick had to say about that. "I spoke with Manny and he says that you tried to counsel him. He says that you were very FORCEFUL in trying to counsel him. That is not acceptable. Women do NOT counsel men."
At this point, my dh broke in and said, "Now wait a minute. I was there in the room. We were all talking as a group. Are you saying that's not ok?"
"Absolutely not. Women are not to counsel men. Even if their husbands are there."
Biblically, this is ridiculous and I could go into all the examples of women counseling men (Deborah being a noted one) but I won't do that here. It was clear that the male-authority paradigm was tantamount.
We were also told that “lots of people” were calling the church asking about my facebook posts. Now, in case you're wondering about my facebook notes, here is a brief rundown.
One had to do with how I didn't want to be the kind of woman whose main character quality was "submissive." I wanted to be bold, an adventurer, like Deborah.
The second had to do with how I was sick of religious Christians who act as though there is one, black-and-white Biblical solution to any problem and try to force-feed their version of truth to others.
At this point, Russell Ann did something that I consider very demeaning and wish that I had prevented. She insisted (after my repeated protestations) on getting a computer and looking at my facebook notes. She read them aloud to everyone and proceeded to chastise me for how angry I sounded. She then lectured me on how she had recently been to a woman's conference where the speaker was a very strong woman but was also submissive and not "angry" sounding.
Then, Russell Ann made a statement that shocks me to this day and really tells me that something is, indeed, very wrong. She looked at me and said, "I reread the story of Deborah this morning just to make sure I wasn't missing something and I saw that Deborah was VERY submissive."
I think I blinked. Wow. I still do not know how to process this. Deborah was the leader of an entire nation and the general of the entire army came to her and basically bowed down to her and begged for her help. She even ridiculed him for asking for a woman's help. Her husband is only mentioned by name once. Their relationship is never discussed at all. Indeed, all we know about Deborah is that she was a national leader, a judge, a prophetess, men submitted to her, and that she won a war and then sang about how awesome the women were. To say that she is "submissive" is incomprehensible to me. Still.
More Divisiveness
At any rate, we went on to talk about these "divisive" actions that I had taken. Derrick wanted to know exactly what I had against Russell Ann that I was not forgiving her for. I explained that the year prior when I was told, "Christian wives don't leave there husbands," that there was a real break-down.
Russell Ann sort of gently poo-pooed me saying that I should have know that is not what she meant.
I gently reminded her that she had once advised me that if other people are misconstruing our words, we really need to evaluate how we are coming across. That we cannot dismiss the interpretation of others. She seemed to almost accept that, which I thought was nice. She stated that we had had a relationship that was part friend, part mentor. I agreed with her on that and told her that I had since realized that I had been looking for someone to mother me and that, in reality, no one was going to do that. I should not have looked to her to mother me because that was God's job now.
Dysfunctional?
During this entire meeting, Derrick repeatedly told us that we were dysfunctional. Even pointing his finger in my dh's face once as he said it. He told me that I am a "hurt person who is projecting hurt onto those around me and causing confusion in the church." (In retrospect, I think this was probably supposed to be a little more stinging but we had spent the entire previous year talking about how dysfunctional we have been so it really wasn't much of an insult.)
We repeatedly tried to assure him that, in fact, we were more functional now than ever and were getting a good deal of help. We were summarily argued with. He was emphatic that we were NOT functional.
At this point I said, "But Derrick, everyone is dysfunctional."
"No."
"No? Everyone is not dysfunctional?"
"No."
I replied, "I'm sorry but you know that we all have a sin nature. We will always have a sin nature. Are you saying that we don't all have a sin nature?"
The remarkable happened. For the first time during this whole conversation, a veil lifted off of Derrick's eyes. For a split second I thought that he was actually looking at me as though I were a real person. I suppose that being confronted with this obvious truth might have given him pause. I had a glimmer of hope that perhaps reason who prevail. And then it was gone. He just went on talking about how we were dysfunctional and broken and hurting and hurting others.
Mutual Submission
At some point during this discussion, my dh was trying to explain that we believe in the concept of mutual submission.
We insisted that we had tried their marriage paradigm and that it did not work for us. Immediately they responded, "No. You misapplied the paradigm." We rebutted, "No. It didn't work for us. We applied it just as you suggested." They were still insistent that we must have been making some kind of error since it didn't "work."
At this point, seeing that my husband was under more attack from Derrick about our marriage, I said something like this, "Now wait a minute. He has been a leader at Victory Weekend and has been taught this paradigm by you. Don't you think that some of this responsibility for the "misapplication" of the paradigm can be shared by the church?" This was not a favorable idea. (In fact, not once during the entire meeting did Derrick or Russell Ann take any ownership that they themselves or the church or ANYONE had played a part in any of this but us.)
We kept trying to explain that we felt our new belief was best for our marriage, that it was totally biblical, and that we were MUCH healthier since we'd instituted it.
This was met with a very strong negative reaction. Almost an aversion, I would say. There was an immediate, "No. No." and a moving back away from the table on the part of Derrick.
I tried to point out that many solid Christians believe in this concept. This was met with, "That may be. But that is not how we operate at Milestone." Upon further trying to explain what we believe, I pointed out that surely we don't all have to believe the same thing to go to the same church.
Russell Ann replied that among the marriages on staff, there were many varied personalities and people. That no two marriages look exactly alike. That there was room for some variation. But she emphatically stated that there was NEVER that much variation. That all the marriages had a male-authority basis and that no other paradigm was acceptable in leadership.
Then there was a segue into the email that I had sent Jeff the previous year. I had printed it out and handed it to them, highlighting the part that had to do with confusion on women's roles. I told them that I wanted them to know that I had tried to figure this out and wasn't inactive on the topic. I also let them know that the email was never answered.
At this point Derrick said something very strange. He sort of jumped on my dh and said, "Why does your wife need to send an email to another man to get these questions answered?" Now for one thing, this is strange because the email was to my pastor and was specifically about women's roles in the church. Something my husband clearly doesn't answer about because he's not in charge there.
Two, he had already established that I was to "submit to" my husband in all things. Now he is saying that not EVEN THE PASTORS should have more of a say in our marriage than my husband. My husband has already told him that he believed that mutual submission was best for our marriage. So, the big question is: If my husband decides upon mutual submission, am I not rebelling against him if I refuse this idea?
Why does he, a pastor, have any problem with this decision of ours if he believes that I am to look only to my husband for guidance? Why is he spending any time arguing with us about this at all? The answer is, of course, that this was all just a desperate attempt to latch onto something to accuse us with when there really was nothing there.
What We Tell Women
During this long conversation, there were several emphatic statements that Milestone does not "simply teach women to submit, pray, and read their Bibles." I found it very strange that the man sitting there telling me that I am "disobedient" and "rebellious" for not obeying my husband was trying to convince us that there is no bias against women in the church. If the situation hadn't been so dire, I would have found it funny. It was so incredibly ironic.
Earlier in the conversation, I was grilled about to whom I had communicated that the church taught women to "submit, pray, and read their Bibles."
I replied that I didn't think that I had communicated that to anyone except in the email to Janna. I stated that I had pointed out that I felt differently than some of the staff women about marriage but I was careful not to be outright attacking of their beliefs. (In retrospect, I believe that I may have come across that way to one woman: Karly. This was probably more because she expressed to me that the old "submit" system wasn't working for her. I was probably pretty clear that I felt she needed to seek help outside the church and learn to draw boundaries.)
Unity
At this point, Russell Ann told me that I was wrong and causing division because I was "differentiating" between what I believed and what the leadership believed. It is very important to understand their definition of "unity." Unity means thinking the same way as they do on certain issues. There is no room for disagreement, though it be biblically based and well-thought out. Even if a majority of respected Christians believe the opposing view. This is one major red-flag of a controlling church and of spiritual abuse. In fact, unity is NOT thinking alike. It is learning to walk together even when you disagree on these issues.
Boundaries
Another interesting note that is that at one point, Derrick said to me, "Cathy you seem to talk a lot about 'boundaries.' You seem to focus a lot on 'boundaries.'" I replied that yes, that is correct. I just find this odd because although my dh had taken the time a year prior to make sure that we were on the same page as our leadership on this issue and that Derrick had assured him that we were, it was obvious that that was not true. "Boundaries" is not an idea that is accepted at Milestone, particularly for women.
Celebrate Recovery
Another odd note was that at one point, Derrick started questioning us about our CR group. Only he referred to it in this manner: "This Celebrate Recovery group that is 'supposedly' out of Rick Warren's church." I was taken aback by the immaturity of this statement. It was as though he thought we were making up the origins of our group.
I simply replied that CR was, indeed, out of Saddleback Church in California and that it was written on the cover of every one of their books. What this says to me is that the idea that a well-respected pastor such as Rick Warren would sanction something that teaches people that they are "broken and dysfunctional" for life is a concept foreign to Milestone leadership. But I will talk about this in a later post.
Names, We Want Names
Late in the evening, the Wilsons wanted to know where I was getting this idea that Milestone was biased against women. I really wanted to just point to the very conversation we were having but instead replied that I wasn't going to do to anyone else what was being done to me. I was having slanderous accusations brought before me with absolutely no evidence and no one there to verify the truth. I was being told that I was not following proper biblical protocol for restoring relationships and yet the fact that this was not being done for me either seemed to be completely overlooked.
Coldness
Now, having no real basis for "divisiveness" as we had answered and explained every accusation, this was the final result: "Look, here's the bottom line. You guys have different beliefs on marriage than we do. You need to find a church that agrees with you."
I looked across the table at Derrick as he paused. I allowed myself, for the first time that night, to get emotional just a bit. My eyes teared up. I said to him, "Derrick, this is our family that we are talking about. Our family. How can you be so cold and clinical?"
His reply: "I don't know any other way to be."
My heart just dropped.
Ultimatums
He proceeded to say, "If you guys want to stay at Milestone, this is what you have to agree to: You can't tell anyone the name of your counselor. You can't tell anyone what books on marriage you are reading. You can't tell anyone what groups you are going to outside of the church. And if anyone asks you for marital help you must refer them to the leadership. You are not to refer anyone anywhere else or give any advice. You guys are broken and dysfunctional and have no business advising anyone on marriage."
My husband spoke up. This was a deal-breaker for him. "We cannot agree to do that. We cannot agree to not tell people where we're getting help."
Conclusion
How the conversation ended was by my dh saying that we would take a month off and think about what we wanted to do. He asked Derrick what we should tell people. Derrick was emphatic that we NOT tell anyone anything. He told us not to call anyone or talk to anyone about it at all. (Why we agreed to is beyond me. Of course, why we sat and listened to any of this is beyond me at this point.)
Also, Derrick did say, "If you want, you can go talk to Pastor Jeff but I can tell you that we're on the same page." (After meeting with some other people who had been pushed out of the church, we determined that this was probably true and was only confirmed later, which you'll see in the next post.)
As we were walking out I asked Derrick if he had happened to record our conversation because he kept placing his iphone in the middle of the table in a particular fashion. He replied that he had not. At that point, I was beginning to wish that I had!
Hell Week - Part II
To understand the situation my husband walked into, you need to understand a few things about the office setup. It is a relatively small space with everyone working very close together. We're not talking about wonderfully appointed spaces with nice, thick doors and lots of insulation. We're talking about thin partition walls and thin doors in a converted mini-mall. People are seated right outside of Derrick's door working (my sister was, in fact. She was Derrick's assistant).
So this is how things went down:
My dh got into Derrick's office and felt immediately attacked. Derrick began to grill him on the fact that he had been talking to Cris Taylor and yet had not come and talked to him personally.
Shockingly, Derrick had somehow obtained copies of my facebook notes, had printed them out, and sort of shoved them in front of my dh, demanding to know if he had seen them and if he approved of them? Flustered, my dh said that he thought that they were inappropriate.
My dh tried to explain to Derrick all of the different ways we were trying to get help. He tried to talk to him about CR and counseling and books. He was trying to show that we were working on forgiveness and growth. All to no avail.
It was made very clear to my husband that I had better "shape up or else."
It also became very clear that Derrick was having a real issue with the concept of "brokenness." He asked my dh, "When do you think you'll be done with counseling?" My dh replied, "Never!" He said that this didn't seem to compute with Derrick at all. The church leadership believes in a version of Christianity in which God "heals" you from your dysfunction, but I'll get to that in a separate post.
He left the office guessing that several other people in the office had to have heard the conversation, including my sister, which embarrassed him even more.
My husband walked into the house extremely agitated, not even able to speak. My heart sank. I walked with him back to our bedroom and sat with him on our settee. What's wrong? I asked him. He started to cry.
"That was a really, really bad meeting," he finally was able to say.
"Why, honey, what happened?"
"He basically told me that we have to leave the church."
"What?"
"Well, he said unless you go and talk to Russell Ann by Friday, we are going to have to leave the church."
I was speechless. I guess I hadn't really expected something so drastic and harsh. I asked him to re-tell me the story and I was aghast. I assured him that we would work it out and that I would talk to Russell Ann.
We had an appointment the next day with our counselor (thank God) and he listened to Frank's story and helped us develop a plan of action for how we were going to deal with all of this. He was emphatic that we should never, ever meet with anyone else by ourselves again. That any meeting that we had must be done together. While this wasn't Derrick's original proposal (meeting as couples), that is the meeting that we set up for that night, Tuesday May 12th, just five days before our 12th wedding anniversary.
So this is how things went down:
My dh got into Derrick's office and felt immediately attacked. Derrick began to grill him on the fact that he had been talking to Cris Taylor and yet had not come and talked to him personally.
Shockingly, Derrick had somehow obtained copies of my facebook notes, had printed them out, and sort of shoved them in front of my dh, demanding to know if he had seen them and if he approved of them? Flustered, my dh said that he thought that they were inappropriate.
My dh tried to explain to Derrick all of the different ways we were trying to get help. He tried to talk to him about CR and counseling and books. He was trying to show that we were working on forgiveness and growth. All to no avail.
It was made very clear to my husband that I had better "shape up or else."
It also became very clear that Derrick was having a real issue with the concept of "brokenness." He asked my dh, "When do you think you'll be done with counseling?" My dh replied, "Never!" He said that this didn't seem to compute with Derrick at all. The church leadership believes in a version of Christianity in which God "heals" you from your dysfunction, but I'll get to that in a separate post.
He left the office guessing that several other people in the office had to have heard the conversation, including my sister, which embarrassed him even more.
My husband walked into the house extremely agitated, not even able to speak. My heart sank. I walked with him back to our bedroom and sat with him on our settee. What's wrong? I asked him. He started to cry.
"That was a really, really bad meeting," he finally was able to say.
"Why, honey, what happened?"
"He basically told me that we have to leave the church."
"What?"
"Well, he said unless you go and talk to Russell Ann by Friday, we are going to have to leave the church."
I was speechless. I guess I hadn't really expected something so drastic and harsh. I asked him to re-tell me the story and I was aghast. I assured him that we would work it out and that I would talk to Russell Ann.
We had an appointment the next day with our counselor (thank God) and he listened to Frank's story and helped us develop a plan of action for how we were going to deal with all of this. He was emphatic that we should never, ever meet with anyone else by ourselves again. That any meeting that we had must be done together. While this wasn't Derrick's original proposal (meeting as couples), that is the meeting that we set up for that night, Tuesday May 12th, just five days before our 12th wedding anniversary.
Monday, December 14, 2009
Hell Week - Part I
Now let me start this part of the story by saying this: This is a hard story to tell. This has changed our family forever. We will never see "church" the same again. Nor will we ever see church leadership the same again. We never, never knew that Christians (particularly leaders) could behave in such a manner. We never knew that they would or could lie. We never knew that they would remain unrepentant about their lies. We have left the institutional church as a result of all of this and will never return. We will never again call any man "leader" of a church. Christ is the only one worthy of leading His Bride.
So my email has been sent to Russell Ann by Janna. That was somewhere over the weekend of May 8th-10th I assume.
On Monday, my dh gets a call from Derrick saying that he wants to see him in his office. (At this point, I am enlisting my husband's help in telling the story to ensure accuracy.) My dh has a bad feeling about this meeting before he leaves. We sat in our bedroom and I tried to propose that maybe it's about something unrelated to our disagreements with the church over marital issues.
{Unbeknownst to me, my dh has contacted the children's pastor, Cris Taylor and had expressed his concern that I believed that the church is not on the same page with us as far as marriage paradigms. He also, apparently, expressed to him that I had a real issue with Derrick and Russell Ann particularly because of their beliefs on marriage. I think my dh was trying to feel out, also, what Cris believed about marriage to get an idea if I was off track or not. After all, if Cris (the resident theologian) ok-ed mutual submission, then we could stop worrying.
My husband believed this conversation to be confidential and private and he believed that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. Reaching out to his leaders in the church to help him solve a problem. Cris told my dh that he needed to go and speak directly with Derrick and Russell Ann. He apparently then reported the entire conversation to Derrick.
It should be noted that I also contacted April, Cris's wife, and briefly told her I wanted to talk about some things privately as long as they could be kept private. She really hesitated on that one when I indicated that I didn't want her to talk to any of the other leaders so I dropped the subject.
Some may say that these conversations were "divisive" but this is simply not true. We would expect other leaders (particularly paid staff) to be able to contain any issues that we were having. One must also remember that we were trying to work through these issues and weren't spreading any kind of unrest to the congregation at large. I often had private conversations with my sister who was on staff and talked about issues that I saw troublesome and never had a problem with it. She seemed to be able to listen to me without reporting what I was saying to others and yet still went on confidently in her job. I expected every other staff member to have the same level of decorum.
Another fascinating note is that in the book Toxic Faith, there is presented a story about a man who did this very same thing (asked a "lower" staff member about something a "higher" staff member was doing) and got "reported" to the higher staff member and subsequently booted out of a church. This is spiritually manipulative and abusive.
In abusive spiritual paradigms, questions are not allowed. Leaders are unapproachable themselves with larger-than-life personalities and presence. This all but forces people to talk to someone besides the leader. Because this secondary leader is also enamored by the higher-up, they immediately report the conversation thinking that they will get a "gold star" for protecting the "unity" of the church. This talking (or disagreement) becomes "divisiveness" in the minds of the leader because he feels threatened and the disagreeing person is simply eliminated. Ownership of the part that the leader plays in this scenario is never admitted. It is always the other person's fault. But I digress. Back to the story.}
At any rate, this is why my dh was feeling a little fearful about the meeting with Derrick. And, yes, he was feeling fearful. Which should indicate the type of power that the church leadership had over my husband and our family. What was he fearful of? Getting reprimanded. Getting told that he would have to leave his beloved family. And that is exactly what was about to happen.
So my email has been sent to Russell Ann by Janna. That was somewhere over the weekend of May 8th-10th I assume.
On Monday, my dh gets a call from Derrick saying that he wants to see him in his office. (At this point, I am enlisting my husband's help in telling the story to ensure accuracy.) My dh has a bad feeling about this meeting before he leaves. We sat in our bedroom and I tried to propose that maybe it's about something unrelated to our disagreements with the church over marital issues.
{Unbeknownst to me, my dh has contacted the children's pastor, Cris Taylor and had expressed his concern that I believed that the church is not on the same page with us as far as marriage paradigms. He also, apparently, expressed to him that I had a real issue with Derrick and Russell Ann particularly because of their beliefs on marriage. I think my dh was trying to feel out, also, what Cris believed about marriage to get an idea if I was off track or not. After all, if Cris (the resident theologian) ok-ed mutual submission, then we could stop worrying.
My husband believed this conversation to be confidential and private and he believed that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. Reaching out to his leaders in the church to help him solve a problem. Cris told my dh that he needed to go and speak directly with Derrick and Russell Ann. He apparently then reported the entire conversation to Derrick.
It should be noted that I also contacted April, Cris's wife, and briefly told her I wanted to talk about some things privately as long as they could be kept private. She really hesitated on that one when I indicated that I didn't want her to talk to any of the other leaders so I dropped the subject.
Some may say that these conversations were "divisive" but this is simply not true. We would expect other leaders (particularly paid staff) to be able to contain any issues that we were having. One must also remember that we were trying to work through these issues and weren't spreading any kind of unrest to the congregation at large. I often had private conversations with my sister who was on staff and talked about issues that I saw troublesome and never had a problem with it. She seemed to be able to listen to me without reporting what I was saying to others and yet still went on confidently in her job. I expected every other staff member to have the same level of decorum.
Another fascinating note is that in the book Toxic Faith, there is presented a story about a man who did this very same thing (asked a "lower" staff member about something a "higher" staff member was doing) and got "reported" to the higher staff member and subsequently booted out of a church. This is spiritually manipulative and abusive.
In abusive spiritual paradigms, questions are not allowed. Leaders are unapproachable themselves with larger-than-life personalities and presence. This all but forces people to talk to someone besides the leader. Because this secondary leader is also enamored by the higher-up, they immediately report the conversation thinking that they will get a "gold star" for protecting the "unity" of the church. This talking (or disagreement) becomes "divisiveness" in the minds of the leader because he feels threatened and the disagreeing person is simply eliminated. Ownership of the part that the leader plays in this scenario is never admitted. It is always the other person's fault. But I digress. Back to the story.}
At any rate, this is why my dh was feeling a little fearful about the meeting with Derrick. And, yes, he was feeling fearful. Which should indicate the type of power that the church leadership had over my husband and our family. What was he fearful of? Getting reprimanded. Getting told that he would have to leave his beloved family. And that is exactly what was about to happen.
What Happened Before What Happened? - Part III
Okay, so here we are in about May of 2009.
I'm no longer in despair. I've started to develop some really good relationships at CR, I'm working through my Step Study, I've gotten a sponsor, Frank is doing the same. We're still going to counseling and that is going really well. We feel like we've past the worst of times in our marriage and that things are really on track as far as deep emotional and spiritual growth.
We're still lying low at church, still not involved in any ministries but athletics. We have a beautiful new baby boy, dh has gotten based in DFW instead of Miami (thank God), things seem to be going great.
This entire time (since July of 2008), I've been realizing that I have an unforgiveness issue toward Derrick and Russell Ann. And that I don't trust their marriage advice at all and that I think it's just about lethal to marital happiness. My dh has been urging me to talk to her to which I reply that it won't do any good and that I'm in a process but am not ready yet to take that step. I even went so far, several times, to draft e-mails expressing my desire to reconnect. But I never sent them. I just knew that my heart was still working through things and that I wasn't ready yet to process through it. We learn in recovery that we need to be at a place where we don't need anything from the person we are trying to make amends to or forgive. We can't go into the process expecting them to react a certain way. I knew that this is where I was with Russell Ann. I also fully expected to have that heart attitude change in time. I was in no way planning to stay forever disconnected from her. At all.
So around this time (May 2009), several things happened that are important.
First, I had a meeting with Janna in which I was just following up with how I was doing. I expressed to her that I really wasn't on board with the marriage paradigm that I had been taught and that we were leaning toward mutual submission. I also expressed my upset that the church didn't have a licensed counselor on staff that knew how to deal with hurting people. During that conversation, Janna intimated to me that she agreed and that they probably did need to get such a person. It should be noted at this time that this family was almost ready to move to the Houston to take a pastorate position there. They were, in effect, on their way out. In a matter of a week or two, they would be gone. That is one reason that I felt comfortable talking to Janna about the deficiencies I saw at Milestone. First, I had been assured our conversations were private so I didn't feel like I was spreading "discord" and second, they were leaving anyway so I thought she was a pretty safe person to talk to.
The second thing that happened during that time was that my good friend Angela was going to have a lunch date with Russell Ann. I texted her before she left that day and said something like, "Please remember at lunch today that our conversations are private." I really felt distrustful of the leadership knowing too much about what our family was going through because I felt that they had been both judgmental and unhelpful and also threatening of removing us from leadership positions (although we currently held only one).
As I later found out, those two events in combination were a fatal error. When Angela next saw Janna, she told her what my text had said under the guise of being "worried" about me. (We used to call this gossip but now we call it "concern.") Janna said, "Yeah. Something must be going on because I've been sensing that Cathy is upset with Russell Ann too."
Now follow all of this up with an email that I sent Janna about our mutual friend Jessica which I'll transcribe here:
Janna:
I'm glad you sent me this. I will pray for them. They are precious.
Hey, it's obvious to me that you and Jessica are pretty connected. Has she shared with you the stuff that she and Joe have been going through?
I've been trying to convince her to draw some boundaries with Joe but to no avail. What do you feel is my job as someone with whom she has shared? What should I do besides pray for her (in your opinion)?
Thanks for your input.
Cathy
The response I got was really inadequate in my opinion.
May 3:
I would say just to pray for her at this point. Yes, she has shared with me what's going on. :-)
love,
janna
This was my new response:
May 3:
Janna, I think there's one more question that it's really important for me to ask.
When we have women in our lives who tell us things like, "My husband tells me I'm fat and he doesn't want to have sex with me," "My husband told me that if I do _____ he'll leave me, take the kids, and destroy me," "My husband wants me to act like the women he sees in pornography," or "My husband tells me he's leaving and I'll be broke and he'll make my life a living hell," what are you saying to them? What is the church as a whole saying to them?
These are all things that I have heard from women at Milestone at one time or another.
I feel like the standard line that most women are given is, "Just submit to him and pray for him and work on YOU."
Quite frankly, this advice makes me want to retch.
I am starting to worry that this may be the only advice that is being dispensed to these women and that would make me seriously question what we're doing as a whole.
I don't hear anyone saying, "It's wrong for your husband to talk to you like that and I'm going to help you figure out what kind of boundaries to draw with him so that he will see that you will not be treated that way."
As you know, I love my spiritual family but I am getting very concerned that this is the message that women may be getting.
So is there anything you can say to help alleviate this concern?
Do you personally have any opinions or objections about suggesting that women learn to draw healthy boundaries in their marriage?
Love,
Cathy
Janna replied back with this:
May 6:
Okay, I wanted to take a moment to think about what you wrote and not just respond off the cuff. Life has been a bit hectic over here, so at midnight-here I am!
I know that this is not the only counsel people are getting at Milestone. There are always two sides to every story and often, when we speak to only one of the people involved, their side is attached to emotion. We just can't judge what is going on in a marriage without hearing both sides. This is not to say their spouses aren't saying things that are unkind (or worse). However, many spouses say things they don't really mean in the heat of an argument.
It's so hard when we have a friend in pain, isn't it? We want so badly to help them and fix their hurting hearts.
I love you.
Love,
Janna
I got agitated. It was clear that she was not going to engage with me as a fellow leader in the church and it made me upset because I felt like these women needed help and the church wasn't providing direction. So I sent this e-mail:
May 7th
Janna:
I appreciate the wisdom that you used when you responded to my email. I am sure that it is obvious that I was in a frustrated place when I wrote it. I wish I had used the wisdom that you did. I certainly didn't mean to sound attacking towards you at all.
I know that there are always two sides, etc. I also know what it is like to live in a home where a husband has been taught to "lead" and "stand over his wife, tear his shirt off, and tell her who's in charge" without being given a balance of that in how to "lay down his life" for his wife. {aside: this was one of the first things my dh was told when Jeff discovered our marriage problem of me being overbearing and my dh being passive}
So, all in all, I'm not sure that there is any advice given to women except "pray, submit, show proper respect, and call your girlfriends." But, that's not really your place to communicate to me so I think I'll take that question to some higher-ups and find out exactly where we stand on all of this. I'm sorry I put you in a position to speak for the entire church. You certainly cannot do that.
Because, quite frankly, if a man is telling his wife, "I'm going to leave you," more than once, he has no idea how that affects his wife. Just as if a woman did it (me). And lines need to be drawn in my opinion. Not between counselors and the spouse but between the spouses.
So that's where I'm at. At this point, if I had a friend in crisis in an abusive marriage, I can't say I'd bring her to our church for help. I'm not sure that she would hear much grace or wisdom about boundaries. I think she might be told a whole lot of things about how she's controlling, how she's not a "Christian," and how she needs to submit.
I hope that I verify that this is NOT the case.
Love,
Cathy
This is one of those things that I deeply regret to this day. Mainly because I see now that I was scared to go to the source of the issue and confront it. Yes, I was intimidated by our pastors and yes, they liked it that way and promoted it. But I regret not having had enough courage to address the issue in person to them.
Right after I clicked "send" on that email, I send Janna a text message that said, "I just sent you an email. Please delete it. I have always found you and Tommy full of grace." I had already recognized that this was all ridiculous. A few days earlier, I had contacted Russell Ann to set up just a fun time to reconnect with them. I realized that I needed to reestablish some relationship before I started really digging about marriage issues. Unfortunately, I would never get that opportunity.
You might guess that Janna did not delete the email that I sent her. Instead, she forwarded my private e-mail to my "counselor" to Russell Ann. Of course, she didn't TELL me that she did that. I might have been able to see what was coming....
I'm no longer in despair. I've started to develop some really good relationships at CR, I'm working through my Step Study, I've gotten a sponsor, Frank is doing the same. We're still going to counseling and that is going really well. We feel like we've past the worst of times in our marriage and that things are really on track as far as deep emotional and spiritual growth.
We're still lying low at church, still not involved in any ministries but athletics. We have a beautiful new baby boy, dh has gotten based in DFW instead of Miami (thank God), things seem to be going great.
This entire time (since July of 2008), I've been realizing that I have an unforgiveness issue toward Derrick and Russell Ann. And that I don't trust their marriage advice at all and that I think it's just about lethal to marital happiness. My dh has been urging me to talk to her to which I reply that it won't do any good and that I'm in a process but am not ready yet to take that step. I even went so far, several times, to draft e-mails expressing my desire to reconnect. But I never sent them. I just knew that my heart was still working through things and that I wasn't ready yet to process through it. We learn in recovery that we need to be at a place where we don't need anything from the person we are trying to make amends to or forgive. We can't go into the process expecting them to react a certain way. I knew that this is where I was with Russell Ann. I also fully expected to have that heart attitude change in time. I was in no way planning to stay forever disconnected from her. At all.
So around this time (May 2009), several things happened that are important.
First, I had a meeting with Janna in which I was just following up with how I was doing. I expressed to her that I really wasn't on board with the marriage paradigm that I had been taught and that we were leaning toward mutual submission. I also expressed my upset that the church didn't have a licensed counselor on staff that knew how to deal with hurting people. During that conversation, Janna intimated to me that she agreed and that they probably did need to get such a person. It should be noted at this time that this family was almost ready to move to the Houston to take a pastorate position there. They were, in effect, on their way out. In a matter of a week or two, they would be gone. That is one reason that I felt comfortable talking to Janna about the deficiencies I saw at Milestone. First, I had been assured our conversations were private so I didn't feel like I was spreading "discord" and second, they were leaving anyway so I thought she was a pretty safe person to talk to.
The second thing that happened during that time was that my good friend Angela was going to have a lunch date with Russell Ann. I texted her before she left that day and said something like, "Please remember at lunch today that our conversations are private." I really felt distrustful of the leadership knowing too much about what our family was going through because I felt that they had been both judgmental and unhelpful and also threatening of removing us from leadership positions (although we currently held only one).
As I later found out, those two events in combination were a fatal error. When Angela next saw Janna, she told her what my text had said under the guise of being "worried" about me. (We used to call this gossip but now we call it "concern.") Janna said, "Yeah. Something must be going on because I've been sensing that Cathy is upset with Russell Ann too."
Now follow all of this up with an email that I sent Janna about our mutual friend Jessica which I'll transcribe here:
Janna:
I'm glad you sent me this. I will pray for them. They are precious.
Hey, it's obvious to me that you and Jessica are pretty connected. Has she shared with you the stuff that she and Joe have been going through?
I've been trying to convince her to draw some boundaries with Joe but to no avail. What do you feel is my job as someone with whom she has shared? What should I do besides pray for her (in your opinion)?
Thanks for your input.
Cathy
The response I got was really inadequate in my opinion.
May 3:
I would say just to pray for her at this point. Yes, she has shared with me what's going on. :-)
love,
janna
This was my new response:
May 3:
Janna, I think there's one more question that it's really important for me to ask.
When we have women in our lives who tell us things like, "My husband tells me I'm fat and he doesn't want to have sex with me," "My husband told me that if I do _____ he'll leave me, take the kids, and destroy me," "My husband wants me to act like the women he sees in pornography," or "My husband tells me he's leaving and I'll be broke and he'll make my life a living hell," what are you saying to them? What is the church as a whole saying to them?
These are all things that I have heard from women at Milestone at one time or another.
I feel like the standard line that most women are given is, "Just submit to him and pray for him and work on YOU."
Quite frankly, this advice makes me want to retch.
I am starting to worry that this may be the only advice that is being dispensed to these women and that would make me seriously question what we're doing as a whole.
I don't hear anyone saying, "It's wrong for your husband to talk to you like that and I'm going to help you figure out what kind of boundaries to draw with him so that he will see that you will not be treated that way."
As you know, I love my spiritual family but I am getting very concerned that this is the message that women may be getting.
So is there anything you can say to help alleviate this concern?
Do you personally have any opinions or objections about suggesting that women learn to draw healthy boundaries in their marriage?
Love,
Cathy
Janna replied back with this:
May 6:
Okay, I wanted to take a moment to think about what you wrote and not just respond off the cuff. Life has been a bit hectic over here, so at midnight-here I am!
I know that this is not the only counsel people are getting at Milestone. There are always two sides to every story and often, when we speak to only one of the people involved, their side is attached to emotion. We just can't judge what is going on in a marriage without hearing both sides. This is not to say their spouses aren't saying things that are unkind (or worse). However, many spouses say things they don't really mean in the heat of an argument.
It's so hard when we have a friend in pain, isn't it? We want so badly to help them and fix their hurting hearts.
I love you.
Love,
Janna
I got agitated. It was clear that she was not going to engage with me as a fellow leader in the church and it made me upset because I felt like these women needed help and the church wasn't providing direction. So I sent this e-mail:
May 7th
Janna:
I appreciate the wisdom that you used when you responded to my email. I am sure that it is obvious that I was in a frustrated place when I wrote it. I wish I had used the wisdom that you did. I certainly didn't mean to sound attacking towards you at all.
I know that there are always two sides, etc. I also know what it is like to live in a home where a husband has been taught to "lead" and "stand over his wife, tear his shirt off, and tell her who's in charge" without being given a balance of that in how to "lay down his life" for his wife. {aside: this was one of the first things my dh was told when Jeff discovered our marriage problem of me being overbearing and my dh being passive}
So, all in all, I'm not sure that there is any advice given to women except "pray, submit, show proper respect, and call your girlfriends." But, that's not really your place to communicate to me so I think I'll take that question to some higher-ups and find out exactly where we stand on all of this. I'm sorry I put you in a position to speak for the entire church. You certainly cannot do that.
Because, quite frankly, if a man is telling his wife, "I'm going to leave you," more than once, he has no idea how that affects his wife. Just as if a woman did it (me). And lines need to be drawn in my opinion. Not between counselors and the spouse but between the spouses.
So that's where I'm at. At this point, if I had a friend in crisis in an abusive marriage, I can't say I'd bring her to our church for help. I'm not sure that she would hear much grace or wisdom about boundaries. I think she might be told a whole lot of things about how she's controlling, how she's not a "Christian," and how she needs to submit.
I hope that I verify that this is NOT the case.
Love,
Cathy
This is one of those things that I deeply regret to this day. Mainly because I see now that I was scared to go to the source of the issue and confront it. Yes, I was intimidated by our pastors and yes, they liked it that way and promoted it. But I regret not having had enough courage to address the issue in person to them.
Right after I clicked "send" on that email, I send Janna a text message that said, "I just sent you an email. Please delete it. I have always found you and Tommy full of grace." I had already recognized that this was all ridiculous. A few days earlier, I had contacted Russell Ann to set up just a fun time to reconnect with them. I realized that I needed to reestablish some relationship before I started really digging about marriage issues. Unfortunately, I would never get that opportunity.
You might guess that Janna did not delete the email that I sent her. Instead, she forwarded my private e-mail to my "counselor" to Russell Ann. Of course, she didn't TELL me that she did that. I might have been able to see what was coming....
What Happened Before What Happened? - Part II
At this point, my husband and I simply agreed to "lay low" in the church.
We wanted to continue being a part of our wonderful spiritual family (people that we had shared life with for four years and were our closest friends).
What we didn't want, however, was to come into conflict with our leadership over issues that we had now grown to hold as very important to our marriage.
We refrained from leading any small groups or doing much of anything except the athletics ministry.
My dh and I were now equipped with Christian materials that gave us an entirely new paradigm for Christian marriage. This new paradigm had nothing to do with authoritarian models but dealt with mutual submission in the home and in the church. We felt so liberated and so much happier in our own marriage. Things were still far from perfect. There was still fighting. I was still very angry. There was still too much control on both our parts. Yet there was a measure of hope that we hadn't had before and we felt that we had better tools to cope with a lot of our issues. I didn't realize it at the time but what we really needed more than anything was support. By not reaching out to our church friends, we were very isolated. However, we knew that we couldn't reach out to our church friends because they were all ensconced in the same paradigm that we had been and wouldn't be able to support us in our new path. It was a rough place to be.
So, with things seeming first better and then worse again, I decided in November of 2008 to begin attending a ministry called Celebrate Recovery at a local church. That was probably the best decision I made during this time. These people were experts in dealing with broken, dysfunctional Christians and helping them get a handle on life again. I got a wealth of support material that I had never experienced. No one was telling me that I was a bad wife or mother. I was met with grace and sympathy and a growth path to help me discover the "why" behind my behavior.
My husband started attending as well and we both felt a great deal of relief at finally getting hooked up with some Christian people who understood the depth of pain we were in and could help us walk through it on a regular basis. While we were beginning to make connections at CR, however, we still didn't feel as connected there as we did at church. We felt torn in many ways, wishing that our church family was involved with CR or vice versa.
Several things were happening during this time that are important:
During this time, I started to notice that several women at church had husbands who were just plain abusive and didn't seem to recognize that it was wrong and that they should take some action. As I heard story after story of husbands who demanded bizarre sexual favors, husbands who hatefully told their wives, "I'm going to leave you and you'll be destitute," husbands who related to their wives that they were no longer Christians and were threatening to leave. I was getting really distraught because I knew that these women had the mindset that they were not allowed to draw any kind of boundary with their husbands "biblically." I tried to speak to two ladies in particular about how their husbands weren't going to change simply through prayer and having a "submissive" wife. That is simply not human nature and God doesn't ever call us to tolerate evil. I tried to explain that the person with the most influence over their husband was THEM and not to wait for a leader or pastor to come fix the situation.
I was met with resistance on the part of one lady (I'll call her Jessica) and so I sort of dropped it. I decided that if she wanted to talk about it or do something, she would contact me or ask for help. Probably six months went by and I happened to ask her again if she remembered what I had told her and I was shocked to hear her say, "You told me to leave my husband." I most emphatically did NOT tell her to leave her husband and reiterated that to her. "No, no. I said you have to draw boundaries with your husband. I told you that leaving him would be your last resort. I don't understand how you could've misunderstood me." I know now that this all-or-nothing thinking is very common with people who do not know how to draw boundaries so I'm a little more aware now of how people can take this and misconstrue it.
Also during this time, we learned in our CR group that we are "only as sick as our secrets." One day a friend from church (I'll call her Karly and her husband Manny) texted me just to see how I was doing. My husband and I had had a particularly bad fight in which I lost my temper completely and had injured him. I was weary and tired of being so angry all the time and tired of being so fake at church, not letting people know what is going on really. I made a decision that would probably alter the course of my life in several ways. I decided to call her and tell her what was going on in our home. This was the first time that I let anyone really know how bad things were in our marriage at times. I was deciding to let go of the shame in favor of healing. I was risking a lot; I could sense it. I knew that marriage dynamics were very, very important in our church and that I had a lot to lose if any of our leadership found out that things were still going badly.
To my surprise, I was met with sympathy and understanding. She told me that her husband also struggled with terrible rage and anger and had done some pretty upsetting things in the past as well. We agreed to get together as couples and talk about what we were going through. We had a good time, seemed to get along well, and I sat and received advice from the husband about my anger and some useful things that he had done to deal with it.
We tried to spend a pretty good deal of time with this couple since they seemed to "get" the concept of angry, dysfunctional Christians. But, in addition, I also decided to open up to another person at church: a fellow small-group leader and one of my very best friends. I'll call them Angela and Joseph. As it happens, this couple were the small group leaders for Karly and Manny. A fact that would come into play later.
One more note in this section about the dynamics going on at this time. During this time, the church had signed on a man and his wife, Tommy and Janna Briggs, to do "lay counseling." Tommy's father was a professional counselor at a local mega-church and although Milestone didn't have the funds to hire a staff counselor, they offered this couple as a resource. My husband and I occasionally met with this couple on a counseling basis and were specifically promised that, "Anything that you tell us is confidential. I will tell Derrick who we are counseling but I cannot tell him what it is about or any details." This is also important to remember. It is also important to note that Tommy and Janna were good friends with Angela and Joseph as well. You can probably start to guess what will happen as a result of those relationships meshing.
Ok, in the interest of full disclosure (lest I be accused of not telling the whole story), there was a time somewhere in the early part of 2009 where my husband feared that I was suicidal. I had told him something to the effect of "I feel like I can't go on anymore" and he was very worried. He forwarded my email (believe me, we took that issue to counseling) to my midwife and Derrick and our counselor.
I believe Derrick's response was something like, "You guys need to take a break from any leadership activity for a while." I can remember my dh being so upset and frustrated because he was fearful for my life and got basically no response or help from the leadership that we had looked to for guidance and pastoral care. I don't think that he even get a phone call. I think that was a real turning point for him, too, when he realized that there had been a promise extended to us that our spiritual family would care for us and that they really weren't equipped to help us at all. They seemed to be the only ones who didn't realize it, though.
Now on to Part III...
We wanted to continue being a part of our wonderful spiritual family (people that we had shared life with for four years and were our closest friends).
What we didn't want, however, was to come into conflict with our leadership over issues that we had now grown to hold as very important to our marriage.
We refrained from leading any small groups or doing much of anything except the athletics ministry.
My dh and I were now equipped with Christian materials that gave us an entirely new paradigm for Christian marriage. This new paradigm had nothing to do with authoritarian models but dealt with mutual submission in the home and in the church. We felt so liberated and so much happier in our own marriage. Things were still far from perfect. There was still fighting. I was still very angry. There was still too much control on both our parts. Yet there was a measure of hope that we hadn't had before and we felt that we had better tools to cope with a lot of our issues. I didn't realize it at the time but what we really needed more than anything was support. By not reaching out to our church friends, we were very isolated. However, we knew that we couldn't reach out to our church friends because they were all ensconced in the same paradigm that we had been and wouldn't be able to support us in our new path. It was a rough place to be.
So, with things seeming first better and then worse again, I decided in November of 2008 to begin attending a ministry called Celebrate Recovery at a local church. That was probably the best decision I made during this time. These people were experts in dealing with broken, dysfunctional Christians and helping them get a handle on life again. I got a wealth of support material that I had never experienced. No one was telling me that I was a bad wife or mother. I was met with grace and sympathy and a growth path to help me discover the "why" behind my behavior.
My husband started attending as well and we both felt a great deal of relief at finally getting hooked up with some Christian people who understood the depth of pain we were in and could help us walk through it on a regular basis. While we were beginning to make connections at CR, however, we still didn't feel as connected there as we did at church. We felt torn in many ways, wishing that our church family was involved with CR or vice versa.
Several things were happening during this time that are important:
During this time, I started to notice that several women at church had husbands who were just plain abusive and didn't seem to recognize that it was wrong and that they should take some action. As I heard story after story of husbands who demanded bizarre sexual favors, husbands who hatefully told their wives, "I'm going to leave you and you'll be destitute," husbands who related to their wives that they were no longer Christians and were threatening to leave. I was getting really distraught because I knew that these women had the mindset that they were not allowed to draw any kind of boundary with their husbands "biblically." I tried to speak to two ladies in particular about how their husbands weren't going to change simply through prayer and having a "submissive" wife. That is simply not human nature and God doesn't ever call us to tolerate evil. I tried to explain that the person with the most influence over their husband was THEM and not to wait for a leader or pastor to come fix the situation.
I was met with resistance on the part of one lady (I'll call her Jessica) and so I sort of dropped it. I decided that if she wanted to talk about it or do something, she would contact me or ask for help. Probably six months went by and I happened to ask her again if she remembered what I had told her and I was shocked to hear her say, "You told me to leave my husband." I most emphatically did NOT tell her to leave her husband and reiterated that to her. "No, no. I said you have to draw boundaries with your husband. I told you that leaving him would be your last resort. I don't understand how you could've misunderstood me." I know now that this all-or-nothing thinking is very common with people who do not know how to draw boundaries so I'm a little more aware now of how people can take this and misconstrue it.
Also during this time, we learned in our CR group that we are "only as sick as our secrets." One day a friend from church (I'll call her Karly and her husband Manny) texted me just to see how I was doing. My husband and I had had a particularly bad fight in which I lost my temper completely and had injured him. I was weary and tired of being so angry all the time and tired of being so fake at church, not letting people know what is going on really. I made a decision that would probably alter the course of my life in several ways. I decided to call her and tell her what was going on in our home. This was the first time that I let anyone really know how bad things were in our marriage at times. I was deciding to let go of the shame in favor of healing. I was risking a lot; I could sense it. I knew that marriage dynamics were very, very important in our church and that I had a lot to lose if any of our leadership found out that things were still going badly.
To my surprise, I was met with sympathy and understanding. She told me that her husband also struggled with terrible rage and anger and had done some pretty upsetting things in the past as well. We agreed to get together as couples and talk about what we were going through. We had a good time, seemed to get along well, and I sat and received advice from the husband about my anger and some useful things that he had done to deal with it.
We tried to spend a pretty good deal of time with this couple since they seemed to "get" the concept of angry, dysfunctional Christians. But, in addition, I also decided to open up to another person at church: a fellow small-group leader and one of my very best friends. I'll call them Angela and Joseph. As it happens, this couple were the small group leaders for Karly and Manny. A fact that would come into play later.
One more note in this section about the dynamics going on at this time. During this time, the church had signed on a man and his wife, Tommy and Janna Briggs, to do "lay counseling." Tommy's father was a professional counselor at a local mega-church and although Milestone didn't have the funds to hire a staff counselor, they offered this couple as a resource. My husband and I occasionally met with this couple on a counseling basis and were specifically promised that, "Anything that you tell us is confidential. I will tell Derrick who we are counseling but I cannot tell him what it is about or any details." This is also important to remember. It is also important to note that Tommy and Janna were good friends with Angela and Joseph as well. You can probably start to guess what will happen as a result of those relationships meshing.
Ok, in the interest of full disclosure (lest I be accused of not telling the whole story), there was a time somewhere in the early part of 2009 where my husband feared that I was suicidal. I had told him something to the effect of "I feel like I can't go on anymore" and he was very worried. He forwarded my email (believe me, we took that issue to counseling) to my midwife and Derrick and our counselor.
I believe Derrick's response was something like, "You guys need to take a break from any leadership activity for a while." I can remember my dh being so upset and frustrated because he was fearful for my life and got basically no response or help from the leadership that we had looked to for guidance and pastoral care. I don't think that he even get a phone call. I think that was a real turning point for him, too, when he realized that there had been a promise extended to us that our spiritual family would care for us and that they really weren't equipped to help us at all. They seemed to be the only ones who didn't realize it, though.
Now on to Part III...
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)